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Timing Problem. Looking for info please


pontiacguy

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1954 Plaza (P25) 230

I finally got my flatty back together and started it tonight. Here is the problem. Its running hot, and I when I checked the timing, its about 20 degrees retarded. So, I know it shouldn't be running if its that far off. I broke out all my manuals and re-read everything for the hundredth time. I was hoping for an actual photo of good timing marks as mine are really obscured. My motor was all original, and when I blasted the pulley clean, the marks came back but they cant really be read. the lines are basically there though. No problem since the manual says 2 before TDC or straight up whatever your motor likes. So I set it straight up, so I thought. This isn't the first motor I've built in my life, just the first flatty. So at this point I'm looking for a sanity check from you guys (or gals if we have any)

The motor ran fine and didn't overheat when I tore it down. It was all original. The pulley didn't appear to be an actual balancer, which I thought was odd, but again I figured it was a low RPM motor maybe it didn't have one, just a hard pulley so I didn't check the marks for balancer slip. My distribution tube isn't new but it was good so I reused it. Motor got a complete work over. I don't re-use parts as a basic rule. It's .030 over, crank is .010/.020. I used a new chain and gears from Bernbaum. I set the marks on the gears verified it was at TDC, and the cam was on the compression stroke so I believe the chain and gears were good. I thought that the mark lined up with the pointer. I dropped the dist in with the rotor at #1.

I have gone back and bumped the motor around to the compression stoke on #1, but here is where I think I am in trouble. I just  lined up the mark with the pointer to verify I was at TDC and check the rotor. So, questions:

1) Is the crank pulley actually a pulley/balancer combo?

2) I do not have a dial indicator that will fit into #6 timing indicator hole to verify TDC. What do you folks suggest or have you used in the past?

3) Anyone have a photo of a balancer that has legible marks I can use as a reference?

4) Any other thoughts?

 

Thanks in advance!!

 

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P.S. I have searched through this forum and I know other people have had this exact same issue. I just cant find any resolutions or a tech that addresses this. Maybe my search skills are lacking. If so please shoot me a link if you know where the answer is.

Thanks again

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I dont have a dial indicator either, i use the depth gauge of a venier caliper. You should be able to verify fairly close to TDC this way. 

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8 hours ago, P15-D24 said:

Did you pull the oil pump or cam? Sounds like the distributor gear slot on the pump is off one gear tooth. 

yes, the whole motor was apart. I did a complete rebuild. To quote Arlo Guthrie " There wasn't no part untouched"

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first off your car is a Plaza as such..bottom of the line up and less trim and frills.  Also, are you certain that the engine is a 230?  1954 was a transition year and both the 218 and 230 engine was used....the engine prefix number stayed the same but the 230 has a diamond emblem stamped in the engine number.  If that diamond is not there your engine is a 218

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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7 hours ago, maok said:

I dont have a dial indicator either, i use the depth gauge of a venier caliper. You should be able to verify fairly close to TDC this way. 

Thanks Ill try that I have calipers and depth mics. perhaps I can use one of the longer rods from the depth mic with an indicator on a base to make it a little easier and more like the one spec'd out in the manual

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1 minute ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

first off your car is a Plaza as I recall..bottom of the line up and less trim and frills.  Also, are you certain that the engine is a 230?  1954 was a transition year and both the 218 and 230 engine was used....the engine prefix number stayed the same but the 230 has a diamond emblem stamped in the engine number.  If that diamond is not there your engine is a 218

100% positive. I have the diamond cast in the motor. I measured it up when it was apart. Its the later car, with the 230 not an earlier 218

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cast...?....the diamond is a hand stamp emblem....and is part of the engine series/serial numbering.  Again, I will defer to the Plaza entry level car where there was  less frills/trim and other appointments.   The only diamond cast was on the head at left rear...as it is a removable/transferable item and could wind up on any engine it alone is not a true indicator of the 230...a 218 could also have the rods and crank of the 230 and still reflect the 218 numbering...but you stated you measured so that is good enough for me...just wanted to point out that the head casting is not enough to go by..

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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What about timing the engine to maximum vacuum at idle?  I put in a Pertronix system and the car ran awful.  I rotated the distributor till I got the max vacuum and it runs fine.  But I discovered that the timing marks are way off.  I think my vibration dampener has slipped.  Oh, ya.  I was going to take it off this Fall and send it to the damper doctor (?).  Didn't get a round tuit. 

Another "Oh, ya". Make sure the distributor alignment is close to where it should be, 6th cylinder TOC measurements and all. In my labors, I got the distributor off one tooth, and a backfire blew out the muffler.  Loud!  The sound stayed with me for a half hour.  

I just wanted to tell you ...

Good luck; we're all counting on you. 

 

 

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12 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

cast...?....the diamond is a hand stamp emblem....and is part of the engine series/serial numbering.  Again, I will defer to the Plaza entry level car where there was  less frills/trim and other appointments.   The only diamond cast was on the head at left rear...as it is a removable/transferable item and could wind up on any engine it alone is not a true indicator of the 230...a 218 could also have the rods and crank of the 230 and still reflect the 218 numbering...but you stated you measured so that is good enough for me...just wanted to point out that the head casting is not enough to go by..


Here is the casting number for the block. I use the words csting number as I ordinarily deal with newer stuff which has it cast in the block. Since it is a unique identifier, t is probably technically correct, but misleading. You can see the diamond. So yes, Its a 230. It as my understanding that Chrysler was basically trying to use up what they had around as Dodge was moving on to a new motor in 55 and Plymouth always gets their hand me downs late in the run, they started using 230's instead of the 218's. I got lucky, because as you stated, my car has no options. Not even a radio. It has horns, heat, and nothing else.

IMG_20140612_202626_592.jpg

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15 minutes ago, pontiacguy said:


 I got lucky, because as you stated, my car has no options. Not even a radio. It has horns, heat, and nothing else.

 

Back then the heater was an option. Back awhile Dad had a 50 plymouth from CA that had never had a heater in it. 

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I give you MOPAR guys credit, I am learning to hate this motor. when it warms up the block expands enough to let coolant out passed all the stupid bolts that go into the water jackets. To seal the ones on the front of the motor I have to pull the radiator and the front motor mount. To move the distributor 1 tooth I have to pull the oil pump and the distributor and scratch up my nice paint job. Of course I am the idiot that got it a tooth off, but still its easier to be mad at the motor. 

The distributor is definitely a tooth off. I pulled the plug over #6 piston and brought it around to TDC and it lined up with what I belive was the DC marking on the pulley so That hasn't slipped. The rotor loos like it is lined up where I put #1, but the its way retarded. So, I advanced the dist as far as it could go, and I my just make it to TDC. I tried hopping all the wires 1 location on the cap, but then it was too far advanced and I had to go all the way retarded to get to about 2 deg advanced. Looks like I have to pull the pump. I don't like things that aren't right.

 

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1 hour ago, Young Ed said:

Back then the heater was an option. Back awhile Dad had a 50 plymouth from CA that had never had a heater in it. 

that's so hard to believe. I know its true, but man look at todays car. They warm your butt even and just heating the cabin was an option. It really crazy if you go back a few more years oil filters were optional on cars.

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People are such pansy asses today:D

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
spelling correction
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9 hours ago, pontiacguy said:

that's so hard to believe. I know its true, but man look at todays car. They warm your butt even and just heating the cabin was an option. It really crazy if you go back a few more years oil filters were optional on cars.

The oil filter was still an option on your car too. There is a guy here in MN with a beautiful 55 Plymouth 2 dr sedan doesn't have an oil filter. My 46 dodge pickup the passenger side windshield wiper and tail light were optional. Turn signals weren't even offered.

We just had a 2017 Chrysler Pacifica rental. That thing had seat warmers and kept  turning them back on! I kept having to turn them back off. 

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11 hours ago, pontiacguy said:


Here is the casting number for the block. I use the words csting number as I ordinarily deal with newer stuff which has it cast in the block. Since it is a unique identifier, t is probably technically correct, but misleading. You can see the diamond. So yes, Its a 230. It as my understanding that Chrysler was basically trying to use up what they had around as Dodge was moving on to a new motor in 55 and Plymouth always gets their hand me downs late in the run, they started using 230's instead of the 218's. I got lucky, because as you stated, my car has no options. Not even a radio. It has horns, heat, and nothing else.

IMG_20140612_202626_592.jpg

what we have here is a difference in terminology ....casting is used when the number or identifier is cast into the block and is a raised section of the cast iron.  all these blocks are stamped with their identifiers when built....the number above is a depression in a shaved section of the cast block.....thus a stamping.  The diamond on your block is very distinguishable. These engines are no more or often less the headache of any and all engines every built.  It is simply that you a tad off on the distributor when assembling and it is never fun backing up.  You on a learning curve..to be upset is when you repeat the same errors next time around

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