50 coupe Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 (edited) Looks like the machine shop over honed the bushings on one of my steering knuckles. The pin will slide through like (insert your favorit metaphor). Thought it odd but what do I know, this being my first ever kingpin try. Sure enough, notable play when installed. Removed it, now what? The other new pin, and the old ones won't slide through. Should I use one of the old pins? Do the pins wear or just the bushings? Should I get another set of bushings and use a different shop to do it right? Also, the bearings that came with the kit are noticably shorter (@ 2 tenths of inch) than the stockers. The supplied shims aren't thick enough to make up the difference. Can I use steel washers to make up the gap? Need some experienced opinions here. Thanks Edited March 23, 2017 by 50 coupe update Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 would seem to me that the machine shop is on the hook for a set of bushes properly reamed...supposedly you carried it to them as they are the experts in tolerances.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Given what you say about the bearings and the shims,it sounds to me like you were sold the wrong kingpin set. BTW,next time you have a axle honed/reamed,it would be a good idea to take the kingpins,bearings,and shims to the shop with the bushings so the machinist isn't working blind. When they can see the whole assembly,it gives them a better understanding of what needs to be done and how it needs to be done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 You said, "The other new pin, and the old ones won't slide through." This leads me to think you may have an undersized pin. They probably only measured the other pin and reamed both to that pin. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Good point Merle....I would think the same....I just figured the man carried his replacements to the machine shop as they have to mic' the items for proper ream-to-fit...but if he carried both and they mic'ed but one...then the shoe is still dangling form their toes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Brought both pins. Don't think he mic'd both, maybe neither. This was a retired 'machinist' who had a shop set up at home. Honestly, I won't go back. I had the spec page I copied from the manual but he said he didn't need it. I figured he must know what he was doing. Guess I figured wrong. I got the kit from Bernbaum I would think they sent the right one. Would there be that much difference in bearing height from the originals? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 2 minutes ago, 50 coupe said: Brought both pins. Don't think he mic'd both, maybe neither. This was a retired 'machinist' who had a shop set up at home. Honestly, I won't go back. I had the spec page I copied from the manual but he said he didn't need it. I figured he must know what he was doing. Guess I figured wrong. I got the kit from Bernbaum I would think they sent the right one. Would there be that much difference in bearing height from the originals? Not having done a king pin job since the early 80's I am far from being an expert,but I am guessing there should be NO height difference from the originals. If it's not an exact replacement then it is the wrong one in my mind. Check your invoice for parts numbers and compare them to the parts numbers you received. If necessary call Bernbaum and verify the catalog parts number wasn't missprinted,or that you didn't order the wrong ones by mistake. BTW,I apologize for all the red underlined stuff. I don't know how that happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Get yourself a cheap digital caliper and measure the pins yourself. If the one new pin and the old pins match dimensions and the other new one is smaller, you've got some mismatched parts. Compare the spindles for being mirror images of each other. My experience with kingpins is they were sold as a set unless they're now sold individually. It's possible they were boxed incorrectly and it's possible it's product that was returned from someone who had multiple sets, put pieces in a box, and then resold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted November 28, 2016 Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 Bernbaums supplied the wrong bearings for sure. Sounds like the parts were not checked out by all three parties. The machine shop should have caught the loose pin to bushing fit. They need the both pins to size the bushings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted November 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2016 I will be using different machine shop going forward. Called Bernbaums, said the guy I need to talk to will be in tomorrow. I measured the pins with my cheapie digital caliper and come up with .795, I believe they should be .797. The bearings are about .025 shorter than the old ones I am replacing. At this point I am inclined to believe I got the wrong parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 5, 2016 *Update* Bernbaum sent me another set of bearings. They appear to be NOS and are the same height as the originals. Gotta say I appreciate their service and responsiveness to the issue I had. I won't hesitate to buy from them again. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 6, 2016 Report Share Posted December 6, 2016 Thanks for the update. Always good to hear nice things about parts vendors for our cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 27, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 Hey! How many hours of banging on the new pins should it take to get the new ones in!! Bwahaha. It isn't the bushings that is the problem but more the hole in the upright. Got one side done and the other about 2/3rds through. Was in the 60's here yesterday. I will try again when the temps are back in the 30's. Hopefully that will make it a bit easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrDoctor Posted December 27, 2016 Report Share Posted December 27, 2016 If you encounter problems fitting one part into another, you could put the part that most mobile/smaller into the freezer for 15-30 minutes. That shrinks it just enough to allow it to be installed into whatever it needs to be inserted into without beating it to death, and possibly damaging/ruining the part. I’ve done this several times, and never encountered any problems. A word of caution, tho’ – you probably shouldn’t leave the part you’re chilling in the freezer for any protracted period of time, say – overnight, as that could make the part brittle, and it could shatter when you do attempt assembly. I’ve never had that happen to me personally, but I’ve heard of such events. So, cooling it just until it goes in where it’s supposed to is plenty. Just a tho’t . . . Thx. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knuckleharley Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 5 hours ago, 50 coupe said: Hey! How many hours of banging on the new pins should it take to get the new ones in!! Bwahaha. It isn't the bushings that is the problem but more the hole in the upright. Got one side done and the other about 2/3rds through. Was in the 60's here yesterday. I will try again when the temps are back in the 30's. Hopefully that will make it a bit easier. IMHO,you shouldn't beat on them,period. I've only done that job a couple of times,but I seem to recall using a screw press to press the new ones in after lightly lubing them with WD-40 or something similar. I MIGHT have used a hammer and a flat-faced brass punch to lightly tap the top to "fine tune it" after it was almost in place,but king pins are one of the places I just don't feel comfortable beating on with a hammer. IMHO,if they fit that tightly,they are too tight and the axle opening needed to be reamed. Since it may have grooves in it or rust from use/neglect,I'd ream it to size before I tried to polish down new kingpins to fit the axles. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 Well said ^^^^^^^^^^^. The pins should be a light fit in the cleaned/checked bore of the knuckle supports. No beating should be required. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) Did you have the bushings reamed to fit the king pins? That is the standard procedure. As mentioned they should be a light hand press. There should be no pounding to install them or you will damage something. Do you have a shop manual? Essential reading. Edited December 28, 2016 by RobertKB 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 I am using a brass drift and old king pin to drive the new ones in, not hammering directly on the new pins. I had the bushings align-honed to fit, never read anything in the service manual about having to ream to fit the knuckle support. Is it typically neccessary to have the knucke supports reamed also?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 Bushings should be a pressed fit into the knuckle support and then they are reamed to fit the king pin. You should not have to pound the pins in as mentioned above. You have something wrong. Those pins will be so tight they won't take grease. You say you have pounded one pin in. How easy is it to turn the knuckle support on the pin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) 42 minutes ago, RobertKB said: Bushings should be a pressed fit into the knuckle support and then they are reamed to fit the king pin. You should not have to pound the pins in as mentioned above. You have something wrong. Those pins will be so tight they won't take grease. You say you have pounded one pin in. How easy is it to turn the knuckle support on the pin? It isn't the fit on the bushings that is the problem. The pins move through the bushing ends as expected. It is pressing the pin through the eye in the upright support that is very tight. The first one that is on swivels fine and the grease moves just as it should through the zert and into the bushings. I did clean the upright eye hole and even took some 600 grit paper to the inside to help clean and smooth it. It would make sense that the pin would be tight in the upright eye to hold it firm but man it is taking a lot of effort to get it through. Edited December 28, 2016 by 50 coupe 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted December 28, 2016 Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) No honing or machine fitting is ever required on the up right steering knuckle support. As mentioned the pin should be a light press fit in this support... The pin should easily be tapped down throght the knuckle support wit say a dead blow hammer. How hard did the OE pins come out of the support? Are the new pins EXACTLY the same size as the OE pins you originally replaced? I think the original king pins are .7950" Was the new king pin set a good american made set or a white box no name set...meaning Chinese no fit ? Edited December 28, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 28, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2016 (edited) The original pins took some banging but came out easier than the new ones going in. I got the kit from Bernbaums but no indication of country of manufacture. The old pins didn't seem as if they would go in any easier but that is a guess at this point. I have measured the pins with my cheapo digital caliper, they don't measure any bigger than .7950. Again, the second one is almost through the bottom of the upright support eye to the bearing. But man it has taken a lot of effort. Edited December 31, 2016 by 50 coupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted December 29, 2016 Report Share Posted December 29, 2016 5 hours ago, 50 coupe said: The original pins took some banging but came out easier than the new ones going in. I got the kit from Bernbaums but no indication of country of manufacture. The old pins didn't seem as if they would go in any easier but that is a guess at this point. I have measured the pins with my cheapo digital caliper, they don't measure any bigger than .7950. If I recall, between .76-.77 which is consistent with what I was measuring on the old pins. Again, the second one is almost through the bottom of the upright support eye to the bearing. But man it has taken a lot of effort. As noted by others and RobertKB below: 8 hours ago, RobertKB said: Bushings should be a pressed fit into the knuckle support and then they are reamed to fit the king pin. You should not have to pound the pins in as mentioned above. You have something wrong. Those pins will be so tight they won't take grease. You say you have pounded one pin in. How easy is it to turn the knuckle support on the pin? After you press in the bushings you need to line-ream them to the correct size for your pins. A king pin reamer will have a long pilot shaft, and possibly some conical pieces to assure the pilot shaft is centered in the far end bushing, to make sure that the two bores exactly match up. If you haven't line reamed the bushings after install you will end up with a situation like you describe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
50 coupe Posted December 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 Here is the latest: I realized the kingpin on the driver side wasn't going in. Now to get it back out! The short version of the story, I learned how to drop the lower control arm and remove the upright. Yup, there was no banging that pin back out so...... After removing the upright and spindle assemply I was able to get the stuck pin out. Don't ask how. Anyway, I used my cheapo digital caliper to measure the upright eye the pin goes through. It measures @ .785-.789 etc. I assume that is undersize. One of the two old pins will fit this eye, the other, as well as the new pin, seems to large. I might try to reuse the undersize pin and see how it fits with the new bushings. Otherwise I guess I would need to have new bushings, again, at least for this spindle to fit the smaller pin. Or, maybe take a brake hone to the upright eye? Anyway, I discovered I do need new upper outer control arm pins. Probably should dissassemble the other side also, I would suspect that they are worn. So, not all is lost, got deeper into the front end than I planned but learning more as I go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 31, 2016 Report Share Posted December 31, 2016 I strongly suggest you take the spindal,s and pins to a machine shop and have the bushings reamed to fit the pins. This is not a good place to use a brake cylinder hone. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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