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Canadian Dodge & Plymouth


wayfarerstranger

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That 1940 Plymouth on the left of the Exhibition pic has 1940 Desoto or 1940 Chrysler headlight surrounds and the rear view shows a 1940 Desoto judging by the longer taillights and chrome moldings below each taillight, but both cars use the one piece USA rear window and the Desoto has the US trunk shape.......it would be interesting to know for certain if the NZ cars did indeed come from Canada or from the USA but on paper it was down as coming from a fellow British Commonwealth country, ie, Canada just to satisfy the various importation officials..........we will never really know I suppose.........andyd  

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5 hours ago, Andydodge said:

it would be interesting to know for certain if the NZ cars did indeed come from Canada or from the USA

 

It's common knowledge here that locally assembled prewar US cars were Canadian sourced, after the war it was a mix depending on the year.

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Edited by eh dubya
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18 hours ago, eh dubya said:

It's common knowledge here that locally assembled prewar US cars were Canadian sourced, after the war it was a mix depending on the year.

17634361_10154485258398803_5044383341232921890_n-1.jpg

.That green coupe is a 1938 DeSoto SP5 Export Six.  The grille should have the upper section painted body colour.  And the export Desoto based on the Plymouth was not built in Canada in 1938.  You can tell the 1938 DeSoto and Dodge in the above photo were from North America by the windshield wipers - mounted above the windshield.  The Australian-built Plymouths and Plymouth-based Dodges and DeSotos were mounted at the base of the windshield, as on the North American DeSoto and Chrysler.. 

To find out if American or Canadian cars were built in New Zealand, check the serial numbers.  The plates are attached to the front door hinge post. 

In that photo of the 1940 car show, I am surprised they displayed a LHD chassis.  If they were assembling cars in New Zealand you would think they would have some RHD chassis around to use, The one-piece rear window was used on Canadian and American built 1940 models.  The two piece design was carried over from 1939 only in Australia as they used the 1939 body through to 1948, with updates. 

Bill

 

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As for Ford,  all countries in the  British Commonwealth, with the exception of Great Britain, dealt with Ford of Canada.  When Ford of Canada was formed in 1904 they had the right to market and build Ford products in the British Empire / Commonwealth.  In return the Ford Motor Company received 50% of Ford of Canada stock.  In 1910 a group of British businessmen approached Ford in Dearborn about setting up a factory in Britain.   As Ford of Canada did not have the money to set up a British factory, they agreed to turn over their claim to Britain.  Ford of Canada's big expansion across the globe began after WW I.

So, Ford of Australia and Ford of New Zealand were wholly owned subsidiaries of Ford of Canada, and not the American parent,   Ford of Canada also had operations in South Africa, India, and Singapore, as well as selling vehicles in the smaller countries, such as Jamaica, through distributors.  British cars were acquired from Ford in Britain.  .

The Canada Cycle company was probably originally a subsidiary of Canada Cycle and Motor.  The firm is still around in Canada but deals in sportswear today, as any NHL fan can tell you.  In the late 1890's, with the bicycle market collapsing, CCM head Thomas Russell toured the Empire to sell their subsidiaries in countries such as Australia to local businessmen.     

One thing to look at in Australia is how the distributors were set up to handle Chrysler products.  In Canada, and the U.S., the country was divided up into sections and each section had a distributor signing up and looking after dealers, supplying cars and parts and handling local advertising.  In Australia, did they have one distributor handling the whole country? or just part of it - one or more states?

Bill

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

hi Bob, thanks for the insightful comments. Chrysler Dodge Distributors (Aus) Pty Ltd was formed around 1935 by distributors who seem to have had state wide rights to one or more Chrysler brand. Canada Cycle and Motor Trading (Vic) Pty Ltd distributing Dodge in the state of Victoria for intstance. Chrysler Dodge Distributors bought a controlling interest in TJ Richards in 1936, it appears some bodies were shipped to northern dealers where they were fitted to chassis. 

TJRwharf.jpg

Safety Steel 1 Inside.jpg

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A New Zealander came to Victoria BC Canada in 1980 and brought his 38 Dodge with him.  I rebuilt the engine, brakes and driveshaft some years ago  and  learned that this particular car is  all American except for the right hand steering .   It also has a full leather interior.  It carries a serial number suggesting it was built in Detroit.

Unlike a Canadian car, it uses the 3 1/4 bore engine , has 11 inch brakes and  American drums and wheels.  The drums have flat flanges and studs and the wheel  centers are flatter .    The wheelbase is longer than a Plymouth, the difference found in the rear door opening.  It also has Export  embossed in the headlight glass and the low beams dip to the left...... a condition rectified by changing the bulbs.   Apart from the headlight bulbs this car is all authentic including a dealer's sticker on the dash.  Not sure but is possibly Amori Motors  Aukland.         

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Dpollo, you mentioned the full leather interior of the Kiwi's 38 Dodge, my 1940 Dodge had a full leather interior, well leather seats with cloth door trims and a felt hood lining and other 1940 Oz mopars I have seen were also trimmed the same...........it was probably cheaper and easier to get the leather than import the US material............. andyd    

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On 2017-04-18 at 6:47 AM, dpollo said:

A New Zealander came to Victoria BC Canada in 1980 and brought his 38 Dodge with him.  I rebuilt the engine, brakes and driveshaft some years ago  and  learned that this particular car is  all American except for the right hand steering .   It also has a full leather interior.  It carries a serial number suggesting it was built in Detroit.

Unlike a Canadian car, it uses the 3 1/4 bore engine , has 11 inch brakes and  American drums and wheels.  The drums have flat flanges and studs and the wheel  centers are flatter .    The wheelbase is longer than a Plymouth, the difference found in the rear door opening.  It also has Export  embossed in the headlight glass and the low beams dip to the left...... a condition rectified by changing the bulbs.   Apart from the headlight bulbs this car is all authentic including a dealer's sticker on the dash.  Not sure but is possibly Amori Motors  Aukland.         

The Dodge you were looking at was a model D8, on a 115" wheelbase.   Early Canadian-built D8 models came with a 3 1/4" bore as the Canadian engine plant did not start up until after production of 1938 models began.   The first Canadian-built D8 had serial number 9,413,746 and the final D8 was 9,416,683 - a total of 2,938.  The first D8 with a Canadian built engine (D8-1001C) was 9,415,694.  So, the first 1,948 cars had the US 217.6-cid engine and the remainder had the Canadian 218.1-cid engine.

1938 US serial numbers beginning with "30" were built at Dodge Main, Hamtramck, Michigan, and those beginning with "40" were built at the Plymouth (former Graham Brothers Truck) plant in Evansville, Indiana.

Bill

Vancouver, BC

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You're most welcome Bill. A few more notes, individual Australian distributors seem to have put their own twist on the branding of different models. My TJR P7 ute had lost it's grille badges but the witness mark seemed to say Chrysler on the right, I've since come to believe some '39s were marketed as Chrysler Plymouths and seen several others badged this way.

There were also P8s or deluxes marketed as Royals with fancy door trims, an interesting bit of local content is the plastic coated interior door handles and window winders, these were made by a Melbourne company which is said to have pioneered the process. They have a large spline on the rear which fits into a splined socket with a groove in it that accepts a spring clip captive in the handle, removal simply requires pushing a piece of wire through a hole to release the clip. This retention system later appeared on early Holdens.

Below is a picture of a very sad Australian SP7, the only one I've ever seen. It has a tag on the cowl like my ute's Lynch Rd Detroit # affixed with drive rivets but on the opposite side and no TJR tags. A lot but not all Australian '39s have a stylish windscreen division bar which extends up over the rubber as if it's to cover a trim joint but I've never seen it with trim or on anything but Australian cars.

chryslerply.jpg

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!CFJMqs!!Wk~$(KGrHqMOKiME0oRNg+cIBNUKBLQQYQ~~_12.JPG

 

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Edited by eh dubya
clarity
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Dubya, I've seen both 3 window and 5 window Oz 1939 Coupes, also it appears that there were 1939 Dodge and Plymouth sedans that used the flat single front windscreen and 1938 style body shell with the rear "hump", these that I've seen have also still had a floor change shifter...........then there are the 1939 Dodge & Plymouth sedans that have the 2 piece windscreen and smooth sloping rear body shape, essentially the same as my 1940 Dodge sedan, these 1939 sedans appear to have the column change gearshift......both versions that I've seen over the past 45 yrs still seem to have the correct 1939 front sheetmetal, headlights etc..........I've wondered whether there was an early 1939 series of cars that used up the leftover 1938 body shells first or whether there was a cheaper version that used these leftover 1938 bodies during the 1939 year..............all 1939 Plymouth & Dodge Utes I've seen have all been the 3 window style as shown in the advert, however for 1940 the Dodge Utes I've seen have been a 5 window style, like the 1940 Oz coupes...........and that use of the "Chrysler" badge on the drivers side of the radiator was correct as I've seen that on 1939 models and it certainly continued into the 1940 versions as well as the attached copy of the 1940 Plymouth sales brochure describes the cars...........and those bastard inside door handles were made to suit the interior locks and winders made by the Melbourne company of Linards, these large splined mongrels were used from 1939 - 48 on Oz Mopars, 1939-mid 50's Oz Fords, 46-48 Oz Chevs 1948-56 FX and FJ Holdens and probably others as well, the handles aren't really the problem but the diecast mechanism that the handles fit into have a tendency to break and or become frozen and then the handle will break as you try to move them............and they are a uniquely Oz design unfortunately..........lol........btw that division bar on the 2 piece windscreen is a diecast piece that invariably cracks and breaks as you gently remove it........I ended up making a replacement piece from brass strip and chroming it..........I did it when I was young & silly yrs ago and could have sold it many times since...............andyd              

img004 (4).jpg

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Andy,

   That yellow Plymouth sedan must be getting great mileage, going downhill like that. Anyway, I always wondered why the Australians got the “Ute’s”, and the American’s didn’t. The precursor to the Ford Ranchero/Chevy El Camino—I’m sure it would’ve sold well here, especially in the mid-west where farmers were always on the lookout for a truck, and a nice car, and they could have both in one vehicle. I’ve got it—it’s because the steering wheel is on the right, and we have it on the left. . .  What else could explain it???

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Ford Australia takes credit for the 1st factory "enclosed" Ute in 1934, although roadster Utes, ie, those with an open, folding top were around since the 20's..........I suppose the reason for the US makers preference for the light truck based pickup could have been that in doing so this gave the makers an opportunity to expand their light truck range and the use of the truck cab tooling..........here in Oz, it being a much smaller market I suppose it was a matter of getting the most out of the car based tooling that they could, a scenario that has been in effect up until today with Chrysler(Valiant) till 1980 and both Holden and Ford having car based Utes in their range until the final production just recently. 1939 Plymouth & Dodge Utes whilst not common have been around over the years, although I've only ever seen one 1939 Plymouth Roadster Ute, I had the cowl/door assembly that came from the 39 tray back ute pictured........the other pic was my 1940 Dodge Coupe, pic was taken the day I sold it, 30 yrs ago..........never to be seen again...............andyd         

1939PlymouthUte.jpg

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Andy, the official designation for the hump back sedans you mention is ‘touring sedan’ and the flat backs are just sedans, I think both were available in most if not all markets.

I’m not surprised ’39 Plymouth front clips may have found their way onto ’38 bodies even new, I note Canada Cycle and Motor were advertising ’38 Dodge utes well into ’39 and after the ’39 Plymouth ute was on sale. AFIK the 3w turret was ’39 only, I’ve never seen an Australian ’39 Plymouth 5w coupe, or an SP7 like in the ad below..
I’ve seen a few pics of that ’39 roadster ‘ute’ and met a couple of other owners of those remains, I’m told the front clip ended up on a hot rod sedan which was pranged.
It’s interesting to hear that door handle arrangment was so widely used, mine were siezed from the diecast socket corroding in it’s steel housing.
I’ve done a fair bit of research into the origins of the ute and am convinced the Ford invention story is a myth, the earliest example I’ve found of a coupe ute is the ’27 Essex Dover. Queensland Ford dealers marketed a 1918 T as a ‘station utility’ with a very basic low swept side topless body.
I’ve seen a 1908 Talbot with a similar body and a rag top, there’s no shortage of examples of roadster utes from the late teens on and the term was as loose then as it is today, also ‘proper’ swept side utes were described as 'open deliveries’ with ‘utility’ not becoming prevalent until the ‘30s.
I’ve seen mention of York Motors Sydney selling a run of utes bodied there, given the huge number of coachbuilders in Australia at the time it’s not surprising there’s a lot of low production oddball stuff like the D12 last pic.

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queenslandUte.jpg

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That 38(?) Dodge 5w Ute body with the roadster/coupe pressing in the side I have seen on 1937 versions also and on a Fargo Ute a few yrs ago........there was a 5W Coupe body at the Hamiltons yard in Shepparton Victoria around 1980 as we called into their place to pick up a 36 mopar coupe/roadster boot lid that I fitted straight onto the 1940 Dodge coupe I had........I have never seen a 39 Desoto Oz 3 or 5 window coupe but as both versions were available in both Dodge and Plymouth I have no doubt that DeSotos were available......the 39 Plymouth Roadster ute remains were found by Chris Daly in the mid 1970's he didn't want the front sheet metal so he rang me and I got it and kept it till the mid/late 1980's, sold it and have no idea what happened to it it was missing the drivers door as can be partially seen in the 1st pic........I do recollect that a couple of yrs ago I saw a pic of a Qld based 1939 Plymouth Roadster Ute with the same style of timber back that my blue remains had......this Qld 39 Plymouth ute was either a good original or older restored car and from memory was registered, but I haven't saved the pic........that last pic you have attached appears to be of a different version again judging by the rear door and roof profile, its certainly a 1939 front though..........am curious about the other owners of my1939 ute remains?......who?........lol.........re that Ford 34 Coupe Ute story it seems that there is evidence that that's what Ford Australia called their version and Lew Brand who worked for them as a designer is credited by various people as coming up with the factory version, I also fully agree that there were lots of "utes" in various forms that seem to have been available b4 the Ford 34 Coupe Ute including even some Oz Ford versions but I think the 34 Ford is generally accepted as the 1st factory Coupe Ute with a rear carrying section that was a extension of the body shell...........regards,andyd       

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  • 1 month later...
On 4/20/2017 at 7:33 PM, DrDoctor said:

Andy,

   That yellow Plymouth sedan must be getting great mileage, going downhill like that. Anyway, I always wondered why the Australians got the “Ute’s”, and the American’s didn’t. The precursor to the Ford Ranchero/Chevy El Camino—I’m sure it would’ve sold well here, especially in the mid-west where farmers were always on the lookout for a truck, and a nice car, and they could have both in one vehicle. I’ve got it—it’s because the steering wheel is on the right, and we have it on the left. . .  What else could explain it???

Actually in 1961-1963 Ford did produce a unibody pickup. I owned one at one time. Closest thing to a UTE in America.

unibody.jpg

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41 minutes ago, countrytravler said:

Did the Canadian Mopars have a crank out windshield in 38 or 39?

 

No, the Canadian-built 1938 models had a one-piece, fixed windshield while the 1939 models had 2-piece, fixed windshields.  As in the U.S.

 

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Don, yep that 61-63 Ford pickup could argueably be termed a Ute but the unibody design is immaterial to the Ute description........Ford USA in 57 or 58 with their Ranchero and Chev in 59 with the El Camino can claim the title for US production cars although there have been various US "utes" by Buick and Hudson to name a  couple..........

Ehdubya.......I'll have to look in the pic piles as I'm pretty sure I have pics of both 3 and 5 window 1939 Oz Mopar coupes...........andyd    

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Anybody have 38-39 Canadian made Mopars pictures of the dash midsection? I have a debate with a customer. He is saying that 38-39 Canadian and export still had crank out windshields and that is why the wipers are still mounted on the top.  Thanks.

Edited by countrytravler
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55 minutes ago, RobertKB said:

1938 Chrysler dash if it helps.

38Dash1.jpg

Thanks, I was not clear with my request. I'm interested in the Canadian and export models. He is telling me that they still had crank out windshields for the 38 and 39. I could not confirm that with my limited research.

Thanks

Dave

 

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