Dodgeb4ya Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) On 10/20/2016 at 1:08 PM, desoto1939 said: On the latest picture of the brake shoes that were on the car I noticed that the front and bottom part of the lining was not chamfered but had a blunt end to them. These shoes should have been cut at an angle to help with the roatation all of my lining have the slight angle cut so you have a smooth transition into the braking shoe material. Rich hartung Chrysler states that only the riveted linings are to be chamfered not the "Cyclebond" (bonded) type linings. The chamfer is only 1/2 way into the first row of rivet holes on each shoe lining. Edited October 22, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya Happy Face Insertion! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 14 hours ago, 1949 Goat said: I would like to correct any mis-information I might have caused about bleeding Chrysler wheel cylinders. Working on my rear brakes today you can see on the smaller cylinders show the 12 o'clock bleed port cast in the body. This port was not evident in the larger and thicker cast front wheel cylinders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 From your picture of the rear brake assembly it looks as if you have also removed the two eccentric pins at the bottom of the backing plate. Now this will make the adjustment to the heel harder with out the ammoco tool. Yes as by your own education the bleeder screw is at the top of each wheel cylinder and this is how the air gets removed fromt he cylinder. This is why I kept stating that you did not have a air issue but was an alignment or adjustment issue. Please keep us posted on how you kame out with the brake overhaul. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Just a comment......bleeding the brakes in the "traditional" manner, using two people, may be the way most of us are used to doing it but it is not the only way. The 1954 "Chilton's Automobile Repair Manual", on pages 235 and 236 discusses brake bleeding by two methods. The first method is the one man method and according to them "the advantage of this method is that it requires only one man and it is cleaner." The second method is the method most of us have used and according to them "has the advantage of being much faster, needs no special equipment but requires two operators and is not so clean or positive." The "special equipment" they are referring to in the first method is a hose going from the bleed fitting and a jar to collect the expelled fluid. Since the one man method is presented first it might be inferred that this would be the preferred method according to Chilton and the two man method a close second. I do most of my work alone and don't have a "second operator", have used the one man method numerous times with great success. Just saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 The easiest way to do it with one man is to make a power bleeder from an inexpensive garden sprayer. Click on link to see the photo. Seems the way I have linked Photobucket pictures to this forum for many years stopped working. When I paste the link the first [ i m g ] is stripped so the photo will not display. Anyone besides GTK and I have this problem? http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Brakes/bleed3.jpg[/IMG] Just noticed something interesting. I was trying to edit my above posting but apparently there is an auto correct that will not allow me to use this [ i m g ] without the spaces. It is automatically changed to "is". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 (edited) Advantage of the one man is just that, one man. Advantage of a two person method is that of the visual aspect of seeing that air bubbles are no longer being expelled from the system. Tough to see that right rear cylinder As for cleaner, I don't get that part at all. Hose in a jar by itself, or hose in a jar with me watching it does not seem to differ much along the lines of clean. Edit: have done it both ways. Just this week I moved a container with hoses attached to each end while rearranging in the garage. Last bleed I did was also a one person, but on that I used a vacuum bleeder at each cylinder. Edited October 22, 2016 by _shel_ny add info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 My bleeding jug. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Brakes/bleed2.jpg[/IMG] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 8 minutes ago, squirebill said: Just a comment......bleeding the brakes in the "traditional" manner, using two people, may be the way most of us are used to doing it but it is not the only way. The 1954 "Chilton's Automobile Repair Manual", on pages 235 and 236 discusses brake bleeding by two methods. The first method is the one man method and according to them "the advantage of this method is that it requires only one man and it is cleaner." The second method is the method most of us have used and according to them "has the advantage of being much faster, needs no special equipment but requires two operators and is not so clean or positive." The "special equipment" they are referring to in the first method is a hose going from the bleed fitting and a jar to collect the expelled fluid. Since the one man method is presented first it might be inferred that this would be the preferred method according to Chilton and the two man method a close second. I do most of my work alone and don't have a "second operator", have used the one man method numerous times with great success. Just saying. Squirebill: I am not saying that the one man bleeding or the two man bleeding is wrong. But the gentleman has been stating that he has had a soft pedal. Even after bleeding the brake cylinders. I was just trying to make sure he was doing it in a logical fashion. He even called me directly to talk about this situation and I told him on the phone that it sounded as if the brakes were still out of proper adjustment. We went over the adjusting of the brakes. I have the same system inmy car a 39 Desoto so I know the setup that he has. I also think we assumed by his input that he had done all four wheel and then find out it was only the fronts. He then went to another wheel on the car and discovered that one drum was still not adjusted correctly .After adjusting the brakes on this drum he then had a good pedal. But when you ask for help and people try to provide help I get comments from other members that make me not want to help. I was not trying to be condescending in my comments or suggestions but trying to help this gentleman with comments and suggestions on how to proceed and from my own experiences on what still might be the issue with the brakes. I am not a mechanic but also do most of the work myself. So the forum is a great source of ideas and help so lets not put down any messengers. We are all learning about our cars and trucks. Rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 5 minutes ago, Don Coatney said: My bleeding jug. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Brakes/bleed2.jpg[/IMG] Don, that looks like 90 proof rather than brake fluid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 39 minutes ago, Don Coatney said: My bleeding jug. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Brakes/bleed2.jpg[/IMG] Since Don’s photos don’t seem to be working well, here is a shot of my pressure bleeder inspired by his. My master cylinder is a bit different than later ones so the fitting on the hose end will need to be different for yours. It makes one person bleeding very quick and easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Let's just agree to agree there is more than one way to skin a cat. One man bleed with just a jar and a hose, one man bleed with a modified garden sprayer and adaptors to get it hooked up to the master cylinder and a jar and a hose, two man bleed with just a rag to catch the fluid, two man bleed with hose and jar, and a vacuum bleed with an apparatus to develop a vacuum. I'm sure there are probably others. My comments about removing the cylinder from the backing plate and holding it in hand with the bleed fitting facing up and bleeding the air out of the cylinder had to do with a cylinder, that at the time, was thought to have only one port going into the cylinder at the three o'clock position. This was to avoid 1949 Goat from putting his car in a ditch and trying to bleed the brakes on the low side wheel cylinder. This somehow went from bleeding the brakes to forming the brake shoes to fit the drum. In my experience the classic sign of air in the system is that the pedal can be pumped up to a higher position from the floor. Brakes that need adjustment is characterized by the brake pedal going towards the floor to the same point each time they are applied and cannot be pumped up. Of course if the brakes need adjustment and there is air in the system, you have to take care of each problem. Since 1949 Goat reported a system that could be pumped up and a wheel cylinder that supposedly only one port at the 3 o'clock position, I was trying to offer information to get the air out of the system. Didn't intend to offend anyone and no offense was taken on this end. Best regards to all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 2 minutes ago, squirebill said: In my experience the classic sign of air in the system is that the pedal can be pumped up to a higher position from the floor. Brakes that need adjustment is characterized by the brake pedal going towards the floor to the same point each time they are applied and cannot be pumped up. This information is dead on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 22, 2016 Report Share Posted October 22, 2016 Squirebill: Yes there are several methods to purge the wheel cylinder of the air and I also did not recommend that he put the car in a ditch. But with the particular wheel cylinder tht he had on his car which is the step down the hole to let in the brake fluid is at 3 oclock but the bleeder outlet is at the top of the wheel cylinder so the air bubble or air pocket then would float upto the top of the cylinder. I explained this to this owner. So after many attempts of trying to bleed air out and he stated no bubbles it was then made clear it was an adjust ment issue. This is very common with the early Lockheed brakes. Since I have the same setup that is why I have the experience to tell this gentleman to check the adjustment. And guess what it was an adjustment issue. I think we can put this topic to bed but listen to people that have dealt with the issue. I am not an expert but was just trying to help this guy. Most of us bleed our brakes via the two person process and as I stated I was just going over it again to make sure he understood the process. Any process that works for you is perfectly fine it is solves the issue. Rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949 Wraith Posted October 23, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2016 9 hours ago, desoto1939 said: Squirebill: I am not saying that the one man bleeding or the two man bleeding is wrong. But the gentleman has been stating that he has had a soft pedal. Even after bleeding the brake cylinders. I was just trying to make sure he was doing it in a logical fashion. He even called me directly to talk about this situation and I told him on the phone that it sounded as if the brakes were still out of proper adjustment. We went over the adjusting of the brakes. I have the same system inmy car a 39 Desoto so I know the setup that he has. I also think we assumed by his input that he had done all four wheel and then find out it was only the fronts. He then went to another wheel on the car and discovered that one drum was still not adjusted correctly .After adjusting the brakes on this drum he then had a good pedal. But when you ask for help and people try to provide help I get comments from other members that make me not want to help. I was not trying to be condescending in my comments or suggestions but trying to help this gentleman with comments and suggestions on how to proceed and from my own experiences on what still might be the issue with the brakes. I am not a mechanic but also do most of the work myself. So the forum is a great source of ideas and help so lets not put down any messengers. We are all learning about our cars and trucks. Rich Hartung Since I was the person who started this topic I appreciate all the suggestions in solving problems. The response above, since it follows my forum responses seems to imply that I am the "gentleman". I live in Canada and do not have a US long distance phone plan, if I did I probably would have taken up your kind offer of your tools and knowledge. It was not me that called you. Regards, Nick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jipjob Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 Well this is cowdodge and like goat I have had this same problem. I have an issue with my brake pedal going soft right after I bleed brakes. Let see if I can explain this by stating after throughly bleeding the air out of the system I can drive my car forward and hit the brakes and all four wheel will lock up in place like they are suppose too. But then when I continue to drive my pedal becomes soft but the brake pedal stays at the proper factory settings! I can get the brakes to lock up but the faster I go the more pressure I haft to put on the brakes. As I have read here on this article the shoes might be the culprit! I installed new shoes when rebuilding the brake system but sadly I just threw the old ones away and now I wish I had not done that. The brakes have been properly adjusted with that Special tool used to set the heal and toe measurements and so that was done by the book. I have all new wheel cylinders, master cylinder , springs and new hyd tubbing. No leaks to found any ware! So back to square one the brake shoes! The front right brake drum is oversized by machining but is with the proper specs. I feel as though this might be the problem but can I just have a brake relineing shop install new brake shoes that would be thicker than I have now? And do you think this might help this spongy brake issue? Thanks and goat did you get your brakes to finally work correctly? And if so could you do a line item form of how you did this. I got lost in all the interactions about the different ways people deal with bleeding there brakes and I just wanted the meat and patatoes of how you resolve your problem. Thanks Jon really appreciate the help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 45 minutes ago, Jipjob said: Well this is cowdodge and like goat I have had this same problem. I have an issue with my brake pedal going soft right after I bleed brakes. Let see if I can explain this by stating after throughly bleeding the air out of the system I can drive my car forward and hit the brakes and all four wheel will lock up in place like they are suppose too. But then when I continue to drive my pedal becomes soft but the brake pedal stays at the proper factory settings! I can get the brakes to lock up but the faster I go the more pressure I haft to put on the brakes. As I have read here on this article the shoes might be the culprit! I installed new shoes when rebuilding the brake system but sadly I just threw the old ones away and now I wish I had not done that. The brakes have been properly adjusted with that Special tool used to set the heal and toe measurements and so that was done by the book. I have all new wheel cylinders, master cylinder , springs and new hyd tubbing. No leaks to found any ware! So back to square one the brake shoes! The front right brake drum is oversized by machining but is with the proper specs. I feel as though this might be the problem but can I just have a brake relineing shop install new brake shoes that would be thicker than I have now? And do you think this might help this spongy brake issue? Thanks and goat did you get your brakes to finally work correctly? And if so could you do a line item form of how you did this. I got lost in all the interactions about the different ways people deal with bleeding there brakes and I just wanted the meat and patatoes of how you resolve your problem. Thanks Jon really appreciate the help! Check the content of this member for lots of brake repair ideas JIPJOBXX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949 Wraith Posted October 26, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 Jon, I did get my brakes working properly. In my case I worked on the front brakes and made them worse, my problem ended up being one of the rear wheel cylinders was seized out of adjustment the other rear was not much better. My front drums looked good (they were thinner than the rears when I got to the back). My new replacement shoes pads were thinner than my originals, so I stayed with the originals (they looked good and I figured formed to the drum). While I was chasing my tail with the front brakes I made some spacers to reduce piston stroke (thinking to compensate for drum wear) I placed them in pistons where the shoe contacts, they did improve the brake pedal firmness, but it was still not the way it should have been. I was able to borrow a wheel hub puller and rebuild the back brakes, then I was able to adjust the brakes to get proper pedal firmness. I do not have the proper measurement tools so all my adjustments were trial and error. Since you have set your brakes to spec with the proper tool you are probably very close to proper adjustment I suspect. I did find that I got the best pedal setting when I set the minor adjusters to slightest of shoe drag. I would jack each of your wheels up and see if there is any difference in spin resistance. I did find that a slight adjustment on the minor adjusters can make a huge difference in the brake pedal firmness. It also sounds like that back in the day brake shoe material was installed thicker on replacement shoes when needed to compensate for wheel drum wear. I imagine there might be some specialty companies that can reline our shoes with the correct thickness if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted October 26, 2016 Report Share Posted October 26, 2016 2 hours ago, 1949 Goat said: Jon, I did get my brakes working properly. In my case I worked on the front brakes and made them worse, my problem ended up being one of the rear wheel cylinders was seized out of adjustment the other rear was not much better. My front drums looked good (they were thinner than the rears when I got to the back). My new replacement shoes pads were thinner than my originals, so I stayed with the originals (they looked good and I figured formed to the drum). While I was chasing my tail with the front brakes I made some spacers to reduce piston stroke (thinking to compensate for drum wear) I placed them in pistons where the shoe contacts, they did improve the brake pedal firmness, but it was still not the way it should have been. I was able to borrow a wheel hub puller and rebuild the back brakes, then I was able to adjust the brakes to get proper pedal firmness. I do not have the proper measurement tools so all my adjustments were trial and error. Since you have set your brakes to spec with the proper tool you are probably very close to proper adjustment I suspect. I did find that I got the best pedal setting when I set the minor adjusters to slightest of shoe drag. I would jack each of your wheels up and see if there is any difference in spin resistance. I did find that a slight adjustment on the minor adjusters can make a huge difference in the brake pedal firmness. It also sounds like that back in the day brake shoe material was installed thicker on replacement shoes when needed to compensate for wheel drum wear. I imagine there might be some specialty companies that can reline our shoes with the correct thickness if needed. You stated that you put a spacer in the front wheel cylinder to take up the extra distance to compensate for the front drum being oversized. The pistons onyour car should have a slot that the toe or top of the brake shoe should slide into. This is very important that the tip of the metal part of the shoe is in the slot. So how did you make an insert to take of the extr room. The slot should have approx. 3/8 of depth so did you put a spacer in the slot area and how are you keeping it in place. The original brake material thickness should be 3/16 as stated in an earlier posting. Ok it sounds as if you are getting closer to a better brake. Did you ever look in the technical section on the use of the ammco brake and miller tool brake adjustment section. Again as I stated before I have the Ammco brake tool that canbe rented to insure that you have the proper brake shoe adjustment. Contact me Rich Hartung desoto1939@aol.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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