ROB-PA Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Gents, Haven't posted in a while; been working getting new house under construction ready for winter. The 35 Plymouth is progressing slowly but I recently got the opportunity to purchase a 1950 B2B. It's in fair shape, no rust, but the engine is in the bed in many pieces and may not be salvageable (sat outside for a couple of years after the previous owner passed away. My first question is about the transmission. It is supposed to be a 4 speed. I assume if it is it is the non- synchro 'crash box'. The surprise, to me any way, is that it appears to be a Fluid Drive. Is this normal? I have never heard of that (but then what do I know?). Second question; Is this worth trying to save as original and if so, what headaches can I expect? Last question, for now anyway; What is the possibility of using the 3 speed/ bell housing & driveshaft that I got from the 46 truck that I got the engine for the Plymouth from? I hope that I can pick some of the expert brains here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 I think the 3spd and bellhousing would work fine. They did some changes in layout between the W series and the B so I doubt the driveshaft would be the proper length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Thanks Ed. Have you ever seen the non-synchro 4 speed used with the Fluid Drive? I suspected the drive shaft would be questionable since there was a major model change in there. I may put a Cherokee axle in if I switch to the 3 speed so I would change the drive shaft anyway. I'm not too familiar with the Fluid Drive other than owning a 1950 Meadowbrook back in the 60s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 7 hours ago, ROB-PA said: Thanks Ed. Have you ever seen the non-synchro 4 speed used with the Fluid Drive? I suspected the drive shaft would be questionable since there was a major model change in there. I may put a Cherokee axle in if I switch to the 3 speed so I would change the drive shaft anyway. I'm not too familiar with the Fluid Drive other than owning a 1950 Meadowbrook back in the 60s. Haven't worked on one but I've seen others with them. I believe Jeff and Merle both have them in their trucks. I think the only other issue you'd run into is the hole in the floor might be in the wrong spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Yes, my truck has Fluid Drive with a spur gear (crash box) 4 speed. They first offered the FD in the light trucks starting with the B2 models. The "standard" option with it would have been a column shift 3 speed, but the 4 speed was also an option. Then in the B3 series the 4 speed got upgraded and synchronized, which I believe is what Jeff has. And I agree with Ed that your earlier model 3 speed bell housing and trans will probably work, but I can't confirm that. They didn't appear to change anything on the bell housing and mounting between the W-series and B-Series, but there may be subtle changes that we don't see. And it's unlikely that the driveshaft will work. For one, the u-joints changed in the B2 models from the earlier trucks. But you'd have the earlier style on the trans if you use the earlier model. And if you swap axles it's a moot point anyway, although I believe some of the Jeep axles use the same u-joint as the later B-series trucks. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Thanks Merle. It's good to know that this isn't somebodies Rube Goldberg modification. I've driven the FD cars before but have never worked on them. I was 16 when I acquired the 50 Meadowbrook. Any feelings on whether it improves the shift-ability of the 4 speed crash box or makes it more difficult? I was hoping that I could just drop a flathead 6 in and drive it to sort it out. I may even use engine that I got for the 35 Plymouth since that is a more long term project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 It doesn't improve the shift-ability. You'd still have to double-clutch your shifts with a non-synchro trans. However, with the FD I can just use 3rd and 4th many times and avoid one upshift. I can also lug it down and make a turn while still in 4th and drive out of the corner without downshifting, as long as it's still fairly flat. This avoids the more tricky downshift. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 If you use the fluid drive the engine must have an 8 bolt crankshaft flange. 4 bolts will not work with the fluid drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 3, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 Thanks Don, I did not realize that. It sort of defines my options. I guess I either find an engine that was from an FD car, try to rebuild the hulk that came with the truck or convert to straight 3 speed. Rebuilding may be possible but not practical (seized pistons, bent valves etc.) if I want to drive it in the next year or 2. Tracking down another good engine just to save the Fluid Drive doesn't seem logical. I guess I'll install the drive line that I have on hand (54 Plymouth 230 w/ truck bell housing & 3 speed) and fabricate the correct drive shaft. By the way I just came in from moving parts out of the cab and jacking the existing transmission back in place (sagging down & tilted backwards so that the shifter hit the seat, preventing shifting). It is, after all this, just a standard 3 speed. I guess the guy I picked it up from assumed that the floor shifter meant it must be a 4 speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 I, not long ago, bought a fluid drive car. With my defective left (clutch) knee the fluid drive is a pleasure to drive for the reasons Merle mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 3, 2016 Report Share Posted October 3, 2016 I believe all the later than 52 230 engines have the 8 bolt pattern. I have 54 230 truck engine in my 52 truck with a fluid drive syncro 4 speed. I don't use the FD feature that often. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 If it's a 3 speed floor shift trans in a B2B, it's not the original transmission. They switched to column shift on the 3 speeds with the B2 models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Jeff, I hope your right that would make life easier. The engine & bell housing are still tarped up in the old truck frame, I'll have to pull it out and check it. Merle, crawling under the truck everything looks original but who knows. I could not find a 'fourth gear'. I believe that reverse is supposed to be a separate rail that is toward the driver and back. If so, it is not there, so I believe it is a 3 speed. Thanks guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 4, 2016 Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 4 speed gear box is a sizeable chunk of iron. 3 speeds are considerably smaller. Would you be able to lay underneath it and remove it without a jack? 4th gear is away from you and down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 4, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2016 Merle, It is definitely a 3 speed. Looks slightly different from the other 3 speeds I have but definitely the same size. The others that I have are older (35 & 46). I suspect that the 4 speed must be longer; I did notice that the slip joint on the drive shaft appeared to be extended a little too far. I didn't think anything of that when I first looked under there as the tranny was sagging down on the mounts with the engine out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 5, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2016 Well today I went out and crawled around under the truck. I set the transmission where it should be and found that the drive shaft slip joint appears to be correct and the shifter is well centered in the original hole in the floor plate. Either the 4 speed and the 3 speed are pretty similar or someone went to a lot of trouble at some point. The tranny appears to shift well, the clutch appears to be relatively new, as for the Fluid Drive torque convertor it's any bodies guess at this point. If Jeff is right and the 230 I have will work with the Fluid Drive I think I will just drop in the engine and leave it as it was. If not I see that the floor panel has the boss stamped in it for the shifter location without the Fluid Drive; then it will just be a drive shaft length change. I have so far found several simple problems that will need addressed to make the truck safe but nothing major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 6, 2016 Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 So, is the trans still bolted to the bell housing with clutch and FD unit hanging on the trans input shaft, and no engine? If that's the case I'm thinking that may not be good for the FD to be hanging from the output side. Merle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted October 6, 2016 Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 The FD bellows will usually leak with a trans hanging on it not bolted up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 I appreciate the input. Like I said before I don't know anything about the mechanics of the FD. It was tilted back, probably about 20 degrees. The drive shaft was still connected and at one time there was a block of wood wedged between the bell housing and the floor to sort of keep it in place. By the time it arrived at my place it was drooping; may have came loose on the flatbed ride or years before. I have it lifted in place now but I do see evidence of something having leaked. What bellows? I thought this was just a torque convertor. Is it just a matter of filling it or is this a more serious problem? I appreciate any education you can give me. Meanwhile I'll see if I can dig up a manual that covers it. If this is more complex than a simple torque convertor it may just be eliminated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 6, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 Okay I found a manual that has some information on the FD. Looks like a simple torque convertor but the seal for the output shaft is the issue. Two different types, both require special tools. I'm sure there would be work arounds for these tools; the question then would become are the replacement parts for the seals readily available? If it leaked does that necessarily mean that the seal needs replaced? I'll spend some more time later with the manual. Any information that you can supply would be greatly appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted October 6, 2016 Report Share Posted October 6, 2016 Is it leaking? If not leave it in peace. Leaks are the only problem these FD units had. If not leaking leave it a lone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2016 Greg, It leaked some due to it being tilted down in the back (no engine in place). From what I can see in the manual that I have it may weep a little after start up but should settle out once it has been run for a while. It is now being held in the proper position. Does anyone know what the correct fluid is? The manual that I have just says to use the 'special fluid drive fluid'. Will automatic trans fluid work? If so it may need to be drained, flushed and refilled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted October 7, 2016 Report Share Posted October 7, 2016 No!! Don't use ATF. It will ruin the seal. I'm running ISO 32 tractor hydraulic fluid in mine. There is no exact replacement for the Chrysler Fluid Drive Fluid, but 28 or 32 hydraulic oil is pretty close. It is not supported properly unless it's bolted to the back of the crankshaft. If it is still hanging on the transmission input shaft I would recommend pulling it off and storing it with it sitting on the stud side. It should just slide off the input shaft with the clutch attached. You may bet lucky and it will seal up after proper installation and operation or the seal may be damaged. No way to really know without running it or disassembling it. Seals can be difficult to find. It's not really like a torque converter, as you said earlier. It's just a fluid coupler. There is no stator, as in a torque converter, to multiply the torque. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROB-PA Posted October 7, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 7, 2016 Merle, Thanks for the information. Do you happen to know if the FD clutch is the same as the standard clutch? It's beginning to sound like my best course of action is just to go with the complete set up I have with the standard clutch/transmission and eliminate the FD. It will be relatively easy to get the driveshaft extended. Trying to get this done before winter sets in here as it will most likely be tarped up all winter (no room indoors right now). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted October 7, 2016 Report Share Posted October 7, 2016 The clutch is not the same. Since you have it all apart I would go with the non FD components. One thing that doesn't come up about FD's is the fact that all that extra weight had an effect on how the rear main bearing held up. There is a special replacement bearing but they are a bit hard to find. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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