3046moparcoupe Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) I took the flywheel that came off our 1946 P15 Plymouth Club Coupe project, over to a highly recommended differential clutch and gear machine shop that repairs the majority of older flywheels here in the Dallas Ft Worth Tx metroplex area. Super nice bunch of folks, incredible busy bunch - my gut impression was really good and my understanding is they've been there for over 25 years, anyway - Reason for getting with them is to have the flywheel re-surfaced and to replace the ring gear. Immediately upon looking at the flywheel - he asked how many miles were on the car. (the odometer reads 44,000 and some change),....he said I need to know if that's supposed to be a flat or a step flywheel, as he pointed to the round depression area (exactly where the clutch rides) on the flywheel surface. (I measured this lower surface area where the clutch rode in relation to the flat outer surface of the flywheel, with the slide rule end of a set of dial calipers, and I get a depth measurement of 24 thousands lower then the outer flat surface area of the flywheel. Their machine shop books did not go back as far as 46-48 so he wasn't able to look it up in his documents. But in looking at the lower circular area he stated that it would seem like an abnormal amount of wear for a car with 45K miles, so his guess was that this flywheel was a two step flywheel and not a flat flywheel that could possible have that much wear. Obviously I'm not much good here - except to show what details I have been able to put together, which are as follows: ###note### just an fyi - This car came from a car collection in Louisiana. So far in dis-assembling the car (and I've got it completely taken apart except for the frame and suspension), it has been a 100% original oem part car...course that still doesn't mean that this flywheel couldn't be a step child - but I would have to think the odds are in my favor, (initially, I had thought the rear motor mounts might be something odd but the more I've studied them I think they were just so badly deteriorated and squashed that they looked wrong at 1st eyeing them, the more I've studied them I believe they were also original). 1: 1946 Chrysler Corporation, Parts Division, Parts List Book, shows oem starter to be pp# 1113 119, (this is a match for the starter on the car) 2: " " " " " " " flywheel to be a PP# 1119 716, (the only numbers I can find on this flywheel . are a (2) and a (13) as shown in the casting, see the following 2 pics... . , 3: This car does have the standard 9 1/4 " clutch, however you can see in the pictures that the flywheel is drill and tapped for the 9 1/4 clutch basket, as well as what looks like the larger 11 " clutch basket. , . 4: The lower, round surface area of the flywheel - where the clutch rode in relation to the flat outer surface of the flywheel, when measured with the slide rule end of a dial caliper, shows a depth measurement of 24 thousands lower then the outer flat surface area of the flywheel. I'm trying to rule out the possibility that someone has done something (C R E A T I V E) here , regarding this flywheel - but obviously my knowledge isn't sufficient to know or see what might be going on. Any of you 1946 - 48 P15 guys out there who can shed some light on this,....your help is needed and greatly appreciated. QUESTION: Did the 46-48 Plymouth's have a two step flywheel ? Could they have a two step flywheel ? etc.. Thank you all so very much. If I never received any further help from this forum, I would still consider it in nothing but a positive light. The help sent my way to date has been second to none. I've certainly gotten more than my share of help and I will definitely try my best to hold up the standard set by the folks here on the forum, and try to help others in the future as my knowledge grows, again with and thanks to the help of YOU ALL. Steve Gentry Edited March 30, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted March 30, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 (edited) For some reason, the attachment pic showing the clutch side of the flywheel never would display (on my end) in my original post above. I tried editing it and re-attaching the pic two separate times, and it still would not work for me, however it did allow me to add the pic here, as shown below. No matter where ya go - there ya are !! !! Edited March 30, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 I know nothing about a "stepped" flywheel on a P-15. I had my flywheel ground flat and it worked great for me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 The ring gear can be "flipped" if required to place unused gears in starter motor contact. I did not see the need to do so on my flywheel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 30, 2016 Report Share Posted March 30, 2016 The last flywheel I had resurfaces was machined on the total surface not stepped, that must be wear. I used a 9 1/4 inch clutch too, on a 1951 Canadian Plymouth bell and 3 speed trans. The only difference in Canada Chrysler used the 8 bolt crank and flywheel on all flathead 6 engines. Stepped, not sure about that idea. I would find an old tyme shop, with an old machinist.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) Don,I can see the clutch side of your ring gear in the picture and the teeth look to be cut 90 degree square, but on the opposite starter side, are the teeth beveled ? It kinda looks like there might be an angle but hard to tell for sure.At 1st I thought your flywheel in the picture looked like mine, I thought I could see the set (6ea) of clutch basket holes for the 9 1/4" clutch basket, and then also the additional set (6ea) of wider spaced holes, which I'd assume would have to be for the larger clutch basket, but in looking again closely the spacing doesn't look right, I think I'm just seeing what must have been holes drilled for balancing.I'm thinking this motor is in your car now, so if that's the case - I don't expect you to get under it and remove the inspection plate to look. Maybe you know this however -The ring gear currently on my flywheel (no part # on it) is 3/8" wide,...The pp#675175 ring gear I have for a replacement is 7/16" wide....The book says 146 teeth (which matches both ring gears) but it doesn't give a width spec....I have found this part # 675175 listed throughout web sites on the net (for exp: nosmopar.com shows it as follows:pp#675175 desc:ring gear flywheel 33-59 Plymouth,Dodge,Chrysler,Desoto. thanksSteve Edited March 31, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Thank you FGF, I appreciate your input...my opinion's not worth much - but I would have to say I'm also now thinking this must be wear on this flywheel...I didn't know if some of the old mopar's had stepped flywheel's,...from the responses so far it appears that they did not. Again, I hate I'm having to gain knowledge at the expense of others, as I'm having a time trying to figure this out by the available documentation.. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 here is a suggestion. You might want to contact Andy Bernbaum with your question and also the part number for your car for the flywheel. They might beable to tell you if it is stepped or not stepped. Just an idea. Rich Hartung 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Rich, thanks for the input...I appreciate anyone and everyone willing to take time to try and help with my questions....You know I'd love to do just that,...but so far - my experience has been (and honestly they're not any different than most business's would be) ,... they are fairly short with you even when your ordering parts and spending money,....you start questioning them on their parts (cause I've gotten stuff that didn't match and didn't fit from both of them that resulted in some of this type of conversation and once it required them to pull a part) and they didn't seem to be too happy about it...I definitely get it,....they're there to make money, and we need them to do just that - be profitable so they can provide us with these badly needed parts,...I could see where they would have to police it - or they'd end up going broke answering questions over the phone...I guess I'm trying to say - I see both sides of it..... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Here's what i have found with my cars.... all are 1946-52..... 1948 and back the ring gears are 7/16" wide. In 1949 and later cars I think the ring gears are 3/8" wide. I have swapped both ways with them on the fluid drive couplings. And a couple truck engine swaps all 146 tooth. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dpollo Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 The flywheels that I have are all flat. The only stepped one that I have seen was deliberately made that way to raise the working surface for more pressure on the clutch plate. Since yours is stepped the other way, it has to be from wear. Some drivers can do that and it does not take them very long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 Another picture 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 This is a a flat six This is a flathead six..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 31, 2016 Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 The picture I posted above is an inverted flathead 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3046moparcoupe Posted March 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2016 (edited) DB4ya: Thank you - this kind of info helps so much. I really appreciate it. I'm not trying to invent questions about this or make it harder than it has to be, just trying not to be that guy that just throws money at it - and then still has to put it in and take it back out 2-3 times like I have read about folks doing here in the past on this forum. Course we all know it ain't a perfect world, and many of you old school guys had to learn that very way (by trial and error) because there was no one to baby sit you when you were there dealing with it...so again, much respect for you guys and your willingness to share your knowledge and experience. I would appreciate also being able to bounce this off you, as you seem to be the type to reply back with sound information. Since I've learned that my flywheel has a round clutch disc wear pattern in at that I measure at 24 thousands deep....I would hope to avoid having it re-surfaced and re-using it,..to discover later that the flywheel was out of spec (too thin) causing troubles,...I've read everything I can find here on the forum and the internet - regarding this, and it makes sense that surfacing the entire flywheel keeps the geometry of the clutch pressure plate basket in spec with the flywheel,....but as one fella pointed out,...you are however, moving everything away from the clutch fork,....so there has to be a limit to how far you can go (resurface),..I have seen where others have asked this same question and the only reply back I have found was a fella who said the flywheel needed a minimum thickness of 1.3 " he was having adjustment issues and his flywheel had been turned to a thickness of 1.1".. At present, when I measure my flywheel thickness at the worn clutch disk area with calipers, I get 1.5" and I am seeing some very slight heat stress cracking that would need to be ground out/re-surfaced, (nothing that your fingernail will hang into, but they are present),...so if the minimum thickness dimension of 1.3" is correct, and with .200" of an inch being about (3/16 ") I would think I should have enough meat there to have this flywheel re-surfaced and it still be way within spec.... Would you be able to shed any light on this. Thanks again for your help so far Steve Edited April 1, 2016 by 3046moparcoupe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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