Lamigrausa Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 (edited) Hi Folks, So I am completely new to the Pilot House world and to Mopar too for that matter. This project is part a long owed favor to a dear friend of mine. She is a soon to be retired law enforcement agent for this great nation of ours and a prior Marine too. Needless to say a pillar of the community and a true friend. With all that out of the way of course there's a story here...she has always wanted an early 50's Dodge Pilot House and a few years ago I managed to acquire her a pretty nice specimen (see attached photos). After the glee of actually owning one faded and the novelty wained she found that driving one in its original form wasn't so pleasurable without some modern underpinnings. Don't get me wrong she loves the nostalgia just not the 50's era handling characteristics, ride, shifting and well you know the story. So after some discussions over a cracking fire or two she (we, with prodding from me!) decided that she couldn't let the truck go and after a few more sessions of further goading from me, she was willing to put her money where her mouth was and move forward with bringing the truck into a state of mostly modern drivability. We hankered back and forth on what a reasonable budget for such an endeavor should be...and what she should expect for that kind of money. Oh and I would be managing the build as part of this 30 year friendship as I probably owe her much more than that for listening to me rant about the endless tales of woe of the 900+ federal employees I have managed at one time or another that have made me a salty old soul over the many years of our careers. Oh ya...the budget...15k. That's what brings me to you folks! From what I have read here a huge wealth of information, knowledge and savvy. I am not retired yet, so I don't have the time to actually do the work myself and will have to farm it out. I am in the Phoenix area so any builders you know in the area would be welcomly received. I'd like to keep the build all Mopar. I was thinking about a 318/360 with a 727 behind it with a mustang style front end. Does this budget seem reasonable? I am sure there are a 1001 ways to skin this cat...I'm all ears! Edited March 8, 2016 by Lamigrausa 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Sadly, if your farming the work out I think your going to run out of money before you finish the build if your plans are all of that work, unless you can find someone that works out of a small shop that is doing side work. The easy install Fatman IFS is about $2500-3000 alone just in parts, and requires a pile of fabrication work, same as doing a firewall cut, and floor pan cut and restore. On top of that you have to relocate the brake and clutch pedals, custom drive shaft...etc etc etc. I don't want to persuade you not to get the job done, it's just that $15,000 doesn't buy a lot of time and parts in a pro shop atmosphere, if it was all done at home it might even be a stretch depending on what the plans are for the motor and trans. That all said...you may want to consider a whole frame swap to a 318 Dakota chassis...then you get everything you want, and in some ways a lot less work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Man 02 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 i bought a fatman mustang kit a few years ago but havent installed it yet. I think it was around 2200 shipped. They make it sound like its the greatest thing ever so i hope so. If thats too much look into the volaire/diplomat subframe. they are the cheapest option if you can pick up a whole donor car plus alot of those cars already had 318 and automatics anyway but somewhat dated technology from the 80s. you could also look at grafting a newer dakota front frame section with the pilothouse frame somewhere around the front body mounts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamigrausa Posted March 8, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Thanks for the thoughts and they mirror about what I was figuring too. So...what are the disadvantages/advantages of doing the Dakota chassis swap? I like the idea of a whole new modern underneath but would the ride height and stance keep the spirit of the truck in tact? Is this actually the preferred method of doing this type of project? Is there a previous build like this memorialized on this site or another? I had considered looking for a Dakota for a parts donor, but not for a full chassis swap. This is a tantalizing idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48Dodger Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 You don't need paint...right? The majority of the suspension build involves welding.....lots of welding. If your thinking of a RMJF* front-end (volare) you can save some money there. Both fatman and RMJ's can keep the original frame. 318/360 with a 904 trans is fine. You can use a 8 3/4 axle with any a number of gear ratio's. A B&M shifter, Lokar shifter etc can be fitted. I would get some seats with the 3 point restrains as well. Keeping the bench seat with a lap belt won't be safe, and the upgrade to a 3 point bench seat would mean burning the paint on the cab. Just off the top of my head: Volare front-end: U pull it maybe 150-250 bucks (and that means you pull it) rebuild the front end: 500 bucks Getting a guy to put it in RIGHT! 2000 318/360 2500 bucks to machine it build 318/360 1500 904 trans 500 carb/intake etc 750 axle 500 w/ drop out refitted driveline 200 rebuild axle brakes 250 brake parts from a 92 Dakota 75-100 brake lines/port etc 50 install brake petal 300 move firewall for v8 engine 500 seat frame 400 seats 500 gauges/switches 150 rewire kit 300 Radiator/hoses 300 build/install radiator frame 400 shifter 225 install shifter and shifter platform 300 total 12,475 (+/- my bad math..lol) So it could be done.....but, it would be really close cuz I know I left a few things out and who knows what dead-ends you might run into, plus numbers could be higher or lower. But at least You have a short list of what it might take. If you sub the Mustang 2 frontend, instead of the RMJF, you'll spend more, but be able to find more guys who can do the job. 48D * R, M, J, + F bodied cars have the "Volare Type" front-end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Decent numbers 48Dodger, but he's looking for it to roll into a shop and roll out done I'm thinking...which means the labour is going to be way way higher, not to mention convincing a shop to do the Volare swap. Just R&R on the front sheet metal is likely $800-1000 by the time they get it apart and hope they don't find any issues. I've got a buddy that runs a custom hot rod shop, and he is a back lane kind of shop, with low overhead and even budget builds for him are like $25,000-30,000. Also most shops don't want you buying your own parts, unless it's hard to get stuff, but then if something fails with it, it's your problem, not theirs. I spent a few years doing light duty mechanics in a very busy shop, and when someone rolled in with a used part, or cheap internet part that didn't work, they got charged to install and remove and install and remove the new part after theirs failed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff1148kr Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Well looking at what you have to start with you can make it. I did the mustang II/ 360 727 with fire wall changes, wheels, tires, tank, gauges steering drive shaft ect, all new with AC and I'm at 21,000 but that includes a lot of special things and paint stuff if glass and rubber is good that is a large savings. If you farm it out for others to do, 15,000 might not happen. Also be very careful in ordering any new font end make sure it will not be to low, its a real pain later, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Nice list Tim. Pretty well defines most of the changes involved in a V8 swap. You missed the AC and heater which could easily add another 2 k to the build and you'll have to do something about the steering since the Pilot house column won't match up with Volare or M II boxes. 20 to 25 sounds closer. I'd be willing to do it for that but I'm not even close to Phoenix and would turn it down anyway. Too many irons in the fire as it is. The owner could reduce the labor cost by pulling the front sheet metal, leaving the radiator support in place for reference and gutting the cab and if ambitious, pulling the motor, trans and driveshaft. I'm using a Paul Horton MII cross member kit that with disc brakes, calipers, power rack and pinion and coil overs will end up in the 1600 range so there are other MII options out there. If you want MII, check the items that come in the kits. Some are complete and you only need to add wheels and tires. The Horton kit only included the cross member. A arms, spindles, r &p, shocks and brakes were bought separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 12 volt conversion, transmission crossmember, electric fan, disc brake conversion to stop the extra horses......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 I agree, 15K will be tough, especially with the MII. I think the Dakota Gen-1 is a better swap. Here is some additional reading material: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/putting-a-chrysler-industrial-hemi-in-a-52-dodge-truck.455737/page-20#post-11401935 http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/52-dodge-b3b-hemi-project.742584/ . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Have you talked to 48dodger about having it delivered to his shop.?? He's up on the Volare swap and Mopar engines/trans. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Man 02 Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 (edited) 1 more thing id like to add. When i was researching suspension info for my truck several years ago before i finally decided to go with the Fatman IFS, i had it in my head that i was going to just roll another truck frame (S10, or early dakota) underneath by body, build a couple mounts and im good. I was chatting with a guy on a different forum and he was completely against me swapping frames and he took the time to explain a few point and ill try my best to explain them: Basically he said the only frame meant to work with my truck is the original, If you look at modern frames, they bend and twist every which direction to work with the design of that body. the pilothouse frame is much straighter. if nothing is wrong with the original, use it and build around it. if you want IFS, buy a kit. Cant afford the kits? go to a junk yard and buy a front frame section and graft the 2 together. What if my original frame is shot? buy another. What if you need more strength because you have too much HP? box the frame and add some cross members. His whole point was build around the frame meant to be in the truck. He also said he wasnt trying to discourage me from modifying my truck but more often then not people think that frame swaps are much simpler then they really are, so people take on more then their skill level, then get discouraged and abandon the project. Can a modern frame be used? Yes they can but you have to know what youre doing and its generally not for a first timer. Now take that as you will but it really sank into me, and as a result i decided that Fatman was the answer. it gave me everything i was looking to upgrade on my truck and Its custom made to work with the original frame. Some of the things that I wanted and sold me on the extra cost of the Fatman kit: I wanted power steering. ~they have power rack and pinion or manual if thats your thing. I wanted IFS. ~thats their big selling point. to get away old solid axles I wanted disc brakes. ~again standard with i believe 11" rotors. more then enough to stop the truck. I wanted the stock 4.5" wheel bolt pattern. ~they offer 5x4.5" and 5x4.75" but i wanted the ability to run my stock wheels and hubcaps. Ill also add they charge no extra for heavy duty springs if you wanted to run a big block. Shipping was 10% of my order cost so its not cheap but if you think about all the engineering they put into this to make it work with the original frame and how much time it will save me, it was worth the money too me. I hope ive explained all that good enough. Best of luck with your project. I look forward seeing what you come up with because it fits along the lines of what im trying to do, except im dragging the cost out over several years. EDIT: i also forgot to mention they add a couple degrees of caster into the kit to help with handling. theyve put some engineering into this kit to keep modern handling characteristics to work with the original frame of the truck while keeping it looking stock. I looked over the plates when i first got everything and there is definitely some angle built into it their cuts and welds. Edited March 11, 2016 by Ram Man 02 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff1148kr Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Even with the Fatman set up you will have to box the frame and also if running the power steering pump of a 318/360 you will need to use a preasure reducer at the rack an d pinion unit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48Dodger Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Yep...completely boxed my frame in. From the front to the trans mount, 10 gauge. From the trans mount to the bed cross member 14 gauge (to allow some frame flex) From the bed cross member to the back ,10 gauge 48D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Mine is fully boxed as well, 10 gauge all the way to the rear cross member that's just a head of the rear axle, the rest will be when I get back on it, hopefully this summer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Installing your own IFS kit is also very dependant on your welding and fab skills, and not that a Dakota chassis swap isn't, but IMO the welds would be a bit less complicated and sensitive then the ifs. We have to remember that the OP is not going to be the builder, and cost is sensitive, which I'm sure that IFS install in a shop is a minimum of $5000 if you just rolled the truck in stock and asked for it....I'm likely $1-2000 shy on my est. That all said, the swap isn't a cheap and easy job either.....what it all really comes down too now, is hitting up some local or resonable distant shops and getting some real quotes, because at the end of the day our estimates don't mean a whole lot, unless we were doing the work. I'll say another dirty word before I go.....S10 Swap....there is the kit now that you can buy that is already made to fit that truck...might be a cheaper option if she can let go of the mopar originality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruff1148kr Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Wow good job on the frame boxing. I did not fully box mine, just half way under the cab Bravo looks sweet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Man 02 Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 (edited) My IFS kit does not include boxing plates but almost everyone ive talked with recommends boxing the frame to at least the transmission cross member. maybe farther depending on the HP levels youre shooting for. To answer the question about the power steering pressure reduction, i honestly dont know what kind of pressures the rack can handle. im planning on getting out in my garage this weekend for at least 1 day to start organizing and cleaning in preparation to take off my front clip and motor which will ultimately lead to welding on the M2 kit. If i think about it ill dig the new rack out and see if they have any instructions. The S10 kit 4mula is referring to comes from a company called Code501. They were advertising in Vintage Truck Magazine a few months ago. i looked into it out of curiosity and the kits arent cheap (around $1400 IIRC) plus you have to supply the S10 frame which most likely needs to be gone through as well. By the time you mess around youve got the same money into that as the fatman kit. Had the option been around a couple years ago when i was looking i would have very seriously looked into it but you have to keep in mind the frame still has weird bends and looks funny if that matters, the track width is narrower then the pilothouse, plus it has the wrong wheel bolt pattern. Most people probably dont care about running the stock wheels but it should be mentioned. EDIT: One of the main things that i often wondered about frame swaps was how easy it would be to get all the body panels to line up nicely with a frame that wasnt meant to be there. the front clip revolves around having the radiator core support in the correct spot other wise the hood doesnt close nicely and you end up with weird gaps between panels. Edited March 11, 2016 by Ram Man 02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfarer Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 The narrow track on the shiverlay is the biggest issue unless you are building a rat-rod with some goofy giant offset wheels.... The Dakota frame has been done successfully by many. http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/53-dodge-truck-finally-of-the-dakota-chassis.349950/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lamigrausa Posted March 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Thanks all for the info so far! Sorry for the delay in a response...just got back into the great USA after a 3 day nightmare in Africa. Kissed the ground when we landed! Twice! That's a story for another day. So I managed to get the ole girl started up today and took her for a spin. We got acquainted rather quickly and I have to say that that's not necessarily a good thing. I haven't had any experience with the flathead sixes like this before and I have to say I think I'm lucky to have missed that in my past driving experiences. I am sure some folks must enjoy the feeling of the 50s technology and the nostalgia of it all, however the three on the tree and the overly flat torque curve of this engine was quite disappointing. I now know why the gal that I'm taking on this project for was ready to get rid of Miss Blue. That's what I have aptly named her. I found myself feeling what it must've been like back in the day to drive on a farm or country road at a whopping 35 mph or less and wish you could just go a bit faster, knowing if you did parts of the truck just might fly of due to the vibration of the over revving engine under the hood. I took her on long drive on a two lane highway just outside of Gilbert Arizona where she struggled just to keep up with traffic. I kept wondering to myself if the carburetor was out of tune or maybe the gas in the tank was too old. I don't really have a comparative so maybe ya'll can enlighten me, is this the most this drivetrain has to offer? I think this answers my question of whether or not this flathead could power an automatic properly. A resounding no from what I learned today. 48Dodger can I send Miss Blue to you for the work? Maybe we can work it out? From what I've seen here so far it seems the first gen Dakota swap might be the way to go. I sure love the aesthetics of this truck...but the guts have got to go. Oh ya...power steering is a must too. I damned near took out a gas pump when I went to top off her tank. I wonder why they put the starter pedal right next to the gas pedal...seems like they should be opposite of each other...trying to pump the gas pedal and start was awfully awkward to say the least. Don't beat me up too bad fellas...I'm mostly just venting here. Sorry about that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram Man 02 Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 use your toe area to push the starter and rock your heel down to pump the gas pedal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 I posted this a few years ago but it still applies to startups. I believe accelerated evaporation of today’s gasoline is the real problem in starting an engine that has not ran for a few days. I spin my engine in short bursts of 3 seconds or so with the starter allowing the oil to circulate and build pressure before I start pumping the accelerator pedal and going for a blast off. This works every time for me. I never use the choke. If you dont do short bursts with the starter and keep grinding away a couple of things happen. The starter motor gets hot and when it does it draws higher amps. Once this happens the current to the ignition system drops reducing ignition coil output hence less spark to the plugs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 Thanks all for the info so far! Sorry for the delay in a response...just got back into the great USA after a 3 day nightmare in Africa. Kissed the ground when we landed! Twice! That's a story for another day. So I managed to get the ole girl started up today and took her for a spin. We got acquainted rather quickly and I have to say that that's not necessarily a good thing. I haven't had any experience with the flathead sixes like this before and I have to say I think I'm lucky to have missed that in my past driving experiences. I am sure some folks must enjoy the feeling of the 50s technology and the nostalgia of it all, however the three on the tree and the overly flat torque curve of this engine was quite disappointing. I now know why the gal that I'm taking on this project for was ready to get rid of Miss Blue. That's what I have aptly named her. I found myself feeling what it must've been like back in the day to drive on a farm or country road at a whopping 35 mph or less and wish you could just go a bit faster, knowing if you did parts of the truck just might fly of due to the vibration of the over revving engine under the hood. I took her on long drive on a two lane highway just outside of Gilbert Arizona where she struggled just to keep up with traffic. I kept wondering to myself if the carburetor was out of tune or maybe the gas in the tank was too old. I don't really have a comparative so maybe ya'll can enlighten me, is this the most this drivetrain has to offer? I think this answers my question of whether or not this flathead could power an automatic properly. A resounding no from what I learned today. 48Dodger can I send Miss Blue to you for the work? Maybe we can work it out? They powered automatics in factory installations and now people are adapting autos to them. So its possible. I think the biggest problem with these is people are used to modern cars that run down the freeway at 2K rpm with an elec fan. These things in good condition will cruise all day at 3K rpm without issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48Dodger Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 ..... 48Dodger can I send Miss Blue to you for the work? Maybe we can work it out? Always happy to talk truck with anyone....give me a call or stop by the BBQ this April 2nd and meet guys who have several different builds you can learn about. They all have dealt with the same issues you outlined in your last post. Maybe there's an answer there amongst those guys you haven't thought about yet. John T with his Flat 6 and T-5 transmission ( I personally drove it 70 miles/hr on the freeway), Charlie and his 50's Hemi motor, Brian with his RMJF front end with a 5.7 Hemi and a 94 T-bird IRS (yea, I built that one..lol). And not to mention a number of guys who have kept their stock set-up other than upping the wheel size and putting in a passenger vehicle drop-out (say a 3:52 ratio ?). Could be worth the trip. Tim aka 48Dodger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NiftyFifty Posted March 11, 2016 Report Share Posted March 11, 2016 We might have a weak engine scenario here that a different trans won't fix, and that doesn't rectify the steering and suspension issues either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.