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Gyromatic question


swiftrev

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is there a way to switch the wires on the governor so that the transmission stays in low- 2/4. and then the driver could just switch between high and low at the shifter? kind of like a powerflite 2 speed with a shifter.

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Basically you have 2 power glides, albeitwith no torque multiplication, one low range and the other high ranges, the gear sets are seperate and are selected by the shifter not the governor.  There is a way to split shift the trans, kind of like the old pre selector style transmissions but I do not recall the process.

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Hmm.  You would want the hydraulic upshift to stay upshifted, so you manually shift from 2nd to 4th?  You really want to?  You love to shift?  

 

Maybe you will get off the line faster than with the automatic shift from third to fourth, but not so wound up as if starting off in first.  

 

If the solenoid is de-energized, the hydraulic mechanism will keep its own gearset in direct drive.  You can manually shift the other gearset from second to fourth.  To keep the solenoid de-energized, disconnect the red wire from the "SOL" terminal at the transmission relay. 

 

This will likely affect reverse, since you will be using only one gearset.  Maybe you could introduce a switched circuit between the red wire from the solenoid and the "SOL" terminal. 

 

You can play with it.  Let us know how it goes.    

 

(EDIT:)  This is for the M 5 transmission, postwar to early 1949.  For the M6, second series 1949 on, the diagram does not show a transmission solenoid.  There is a direct wire between the governor and the solenoid.  This wire would have to be interrupted. 

Edited by DonaldSmith
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Go find a "Shift Rite" kick down gear shift knob.

 

Then you can shift up, down and any way you need when you decide you need to.

 

It's got a ground out button in the end of the knob to hold it in a low range or force the M-5 or M-6 trans to  kick down when YOU want it to. It will also delay upshifts to when YOU decide the trans should upshift.

 

I drive my 1946 NY 3 passenger cpe with one and drive it as a 4 speed at times when drag racing it.

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I gather that shiftrev doesn't want to downshift.  He wants to start in 2nd and manually shift to 4th.  This is the opposite of a  kick-down.  So instead of grounding the solenoid, he would keep it from grounding.  

 

To each his own.

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He will never be able to start in low range 2nd gear.

 

If you start in low and auto upshift into 2nd low range @ say 10 MPH then pull it down into high range at 15 MPH or higher it will be in 4th gear high range. 

 

If swiftrev learns how to use a shift rite or just a floor mounted ground out button he will find a shifting sequence that will suit him.

 

Or better yet drive it the way it was designed to drive you will learn to be ok with it.

 

If not dump a 440 and Torqueflite in it.

 

Easy.

 

.

Edited by Dodgeb4ya
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Hmm.  You would want the hydraulic upshift to stay upshifted, so you manually shift from 2nd to 4th?  You really want to?  You love to shift?  

 

Maybe you will get off the line faster than with the automatic shift from third to fourth, but not so wound up as if starting off in first.  

 

If the solenoid is de-energized, the hydraulic mechanism will keep its own gearset in direct drive.  You can manually shift the other gearset from second to fourth.  To keep the solenoid de-energized, disconnect the red wire from the "SOL" terminal at the transmission relay. 

 

This will likely affect reverse, since you will be using only one gearset.  Maybe you could introduce a switched circuit between the red wire from the solenoid and the "SOL" terminal. 

 

You can play with it.  Let us know how it goes.    

 

(EDIT:)  This is for the M 5 transmission, postwar to early 1949.  For the M6, second series 1949 on, the diagram does not show a transmission solenoid.  There is a direct wire between the governor and the solenoid.  This wire would have to be interrupted. 

Im actually away from the car right now so I cant look at the trans to see what your saying Im only able to work on it on Saturdays. but..are you saying that it wont shift into reverse with the solenoid de energized?

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Go find a "Shift Rite" kick down gear shift knob.

 

Then you can shift up, down and any way you need when you decide you need to.

 

It's got a ground out button in the end of the knob to hold it in a low range or force the M-5 or M-6 trans to  kick down when YOU want it to. It will also delay upshifts to when YOU decide the trans should upshift.

 

I drive my 1946 NY 3 passenger cpe with one and drive it as a 4 speed at times when drag racing it.

OK I see.  thanks.  I havent found shift rite but I get what to do, like the shifters with the "nitrous" button on it

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You could put 10/30 for faster upshifts or even try 30 weight. I have done it.

Causes slower delayed auto down shifts though..

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Swiftrev, here's what I tried on my 47 DeSoto: 

 

I made a switched circuit for the "Sol" terminal on the transmission relay, so that from the driver's seat I could switch on and off the current to the solenoid.  This is an under-drive, not an overdrive.

 

The way this transmission works is that when there is power to the solenoid, the transmission is in 1st or 3rd, depending on the manual shifting between power range and driving range.  The governor and/or the kickdown switch grounds the relay, completing the power circuit to the solenoid.  When the governor reaches the right speed, the relay opens the circuit to the solenoid.  This may be opposite of the way an overdrive transmission works, so a Shift-Rite may do the opposite of what you want. . 

 

Yes, it started in 2nd instead of 1st, and I manually shifted to 4th.  And yes, reverse worked, and seemed to be normal gearing for reverse.  

 

There were some peculiarities, possibly caused  by the jury-rigged switch, and possibly some peculiarities in the control system.  Sometimes it would shift from 2nd to 3rd, and then upshift by tiptoe. 

 

If you proceed with this I just want to say, "Good luck; we're all counting on you."

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So I could shut off the solenoid to start in 2nd and shift into 4th.  Why sometimes would the car start off in 1st or 3rd, if the solenoid was switched off?  (See my post no. 10 above.)

 

I studied the diagrams of the transmission.  The shift into 1st or 3rd is under spring power, and is the "at rest" situation.  Hydraulic pressure makes the shift to 2nd or 4th, and maintains the shift.  But the main shaft has to be turning, to pump the hydraulic fluid to make the shift. 

 

So maybe I can't really start off in 2nd, since I have to get the main shaft moving.  But if the car is moving, I could manually shift into second.

 

Confusing?  My head hurts.      

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Don't forget the M-5 1942 to 1948 transmission controls and wiring are different than later 1949-53 M-6 transmissions.

 

The M-5 transmissions have no transmission relay.

 

The "Shift-Rite" fluid drive M-5 /M-6 after market accessory kick down knob and button is  for the Gyro-Matic and Hydraulically Operated transmissions--NOT for  the 1952 and later overdrive R10 transmissions.

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Transmission relay - the other way around.  My M-5 has a transmission relay. My shop manual shows that the M-6 doesn't.  That's the extent of my knowledge.  You are most likely right on the Shift-Rite kickdown. 

 

But it sounded like shiftrev wanted to prevent the kickdown, so he could start in 2nd and shift to 4th.  But the best I can figure, the car downshifts to 1st-3rd when the car stops, since the main shaft is no longer turning, so there is no hydraulic pressure to stay in 2nd-4th.  

 

I guess. 

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Transmission relay - the other way around.  My M-5 has a transmission relay. My shop manual shows that the M-6 doesn't.  That's the extent of my knowledge.  You are most likely right on the Shift-Rite kickdown. 

 

But it sounded like shiftrev wanted to prevent the kickdown, so he could start in 2nd and shift to 4th.  But the best I can figure, the car downshifts to 1st-3rd when the car stops, since the main shaft is no longer turning, so there is no hydraulic pressure to stay in 2nd-4th.  

 

I guess. 

yes thats it. though I wouldn't mind a shift rite but I imagine they are as hard to find as floor shifters.  I really just want to cut all of the anti stall and stuff off of the carb and just drive it like a stick shift.  maybe even change the carb.

 

the part i was wondering about was the oil pressure that shifts it from first to second/ third to fourth. I understand what your talking about I read it here:     http://www.imperialclub.com/~imperialclub/Repair/Transmission/index.htm.

 

It seems most usable with just 2 and 4 rather than 1 and 3. I was actually thinking about finding some way to jam the hydraulic shifter to stay stuck in two or four since the trans cover is off now.  but if with the solenoid off it start in 1 and  the oil pressure shifts to 2 I can manually shift to four I guess thats good.  I cant drive it out of the  driveway so ill have to jack up the rear wheels to figure out what works

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You need a 2 speed powerflite to get what you want.  but..

 

 You could disconnect the wiring at the fuse circuit breakery on the air cleaner bracket. Causes oil pressure build imediately from a dead stop for imediate upshift and stay there in high.

 

Drive it then and see what happens.... It will be in high range at all times except after a 1 minute complete stop with the clutch pushed in.

 

There will be no kick downs.. at all.

 

Do not shift into reverse untill the trans has hydraulically pulled out of high direct..

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Here'a a wild idea for manual shifting, ShiftRite, etc.  

 

My differential has a 3.91 axle ratio.  (I have the big, heavy Suburban.)  The tiptoe shift works OK, but at 40 mph it feels like there should be another shift.  These engines seem to rev high at highway speeds.

 

If you go to a much lower axle ratio, the car will run more calmly at highway speeds, but would be really slow off the line in 3rd gear, making 1st gear more attractive.  If you have the ShiftRite or similar, the car will stay in 1st until you manually shift to 3rd, and will stay in 3rd until you want an up shift, like an overdrive, for highway speeds. For the upshift, turn off the ShiftRite.  

 

For me, I'm happy with the clutch-less cruising around town, and can live with the occasional highway speeds. 

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Here'a a wild idea for manual shifting, ShiftRite, etc.  

 

My differential has a 3.91 axle ratio.  (I have the big, heavy Suburban.)  The tiptoe shift works OK, but at 40 mph it feels like there should be another shift.  These engines seem to rev high at highway speeds.

 

If you go to a much lower axle ratio, the car will run more calmly at highway speeds, but would be really slow off the line in 3rd gear, making 1st gear more attractive.  If you have the ShiftRite or similar, the car will stay in 1st until you manually shift to 3rd, and will stay in 3rd until you want an up shift, like an overdrive, for highway speeds. For the upshift, turn off the ShiftRite.  

 

For me, I'm happy with the clutch-less cruising around town, and can live with the occasional highway speeds. 

I put a Chrysler 8.25 rear on it with 3.55 gears.  after I finally got the driveshaft to length, someone offered a plymouth 3 speed tranny, which is what i wanted but I dont feel like going for another driveshaft.  Im just being cheap at the moment. I still have never driven it out of my driveway. and the only time I did I drove it like a three on the tree going from first to third.

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You need a 2 speed powerflite to get what you want.  but..

 

 You could disconnect the wiring at the fuse circuit breakery on the air cleaner bracket. Causes oil pressure build imediately from a dead stop for imediate upshift and stay there in high.

 

Drive it then and see what happens.... It will be in high range at all times except after a 1 minute complete stop with the clutch pushed in.

 

There will be no kick downs.. at all.

 

Do not shift into reverse untill the trans has hydraulically pulled out of high direct..

yeah Im gonna have to test with the rear wheels up in the garage.  maybe I could disconnect everything and just have a switch to the solenoid.... I wont have to wait a minute to shift to reverse will I?

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  • 1 year later...

While we are on this topic,  I can think of  no reason why an M5 or M6 would not work without the fluid drive unit, just a dry clutch. It might not work well but it would be different.  Any ideas ?  (and no, I am not going to spend a bunch of money re machining the input shaft just to find out but I am willing to wager that somebody has at some time)

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16 hours ago, Phil Martin said:

I can't get my 50 dodge gyromatic to down shift unless I come to complete stop and push clutch in  Shifts up ok but not down even if I floor it. Ran all electrical tests in manual and they all check out ok.

The two wire solenoid is not getting power or not working at all on down shifting to dump the oil pressure...reason for the long delayed down shift and no forced downshifts.

Re-check your tests....

You might want to start your own thread.

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I found my problem this morning. Operator probs happen a lot.about. About a year ago [yes it took a long time to find] I changed fluid in trans. Jacked car up from passenger side to get at trans plugs. Big mistake, suppose to have 3 pints 10 wt oil. I drained out 1.5 quarts of oil. Put in 3 pints 10 wt oil now it works fine. Sometimes  feel like a fool this is one.

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1 hour ago, Phil Martin said:

I found my problem this morning. Operator probs happen a lot.about. About a year ago [yes it took a long time to find] I changed fluid in trans. Jacked car up from passenger side to get at trans plugs. Big mistake, suppose to have 3 pints 10 wt oil. I drained out 1.5 quarts of oil. Put in 3 pints 10 wt oil now it works fine. Sometimes  feel like a fool this is one.

I don't understand. Last I checked 3 pints is 1.5 quarts.

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