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Oil sludge....non-detergent


Reg Evans

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Well, I figured I'd drop the oil pan on my old '33 Plymouth since the manual that came with it back then said that the pan should be removed once a year for cleaning.  Ugh..... !

 

From the looks of it I'll bet the previous owner,since 1958,never did this.

This is why I try to never run detergent oil in an old engine unless I know what it's like on the inside.  This stuff is really caked on and I'm not even going to attempt to remove it unless I rebuild the engine. I'm afraid I would just stir up a lot of trouble.  I did break my rule and change the oil a few months back when I got the car. All I had was detergent oil. It turned black the next day.

 

Note the plateau of chunks right under the pick up screen in photo 3 that were trying to go for a re-run through the engine.

Oops......Sorry old engine. :huh:

 

 

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I'm pretty darned sure that I wouldn't be able to get it all out unless I pulled the engine and turned it up side down and sideways. It's really caked on all the surfaces.

I'm sticking with non-detergent until I rebuild it.

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It would help the engine if the dirt really remained in the pan but I'm thinking that the smaller particles of dirt will get past the pickup screen and go for a ride between the crank and bearings.

I wish there was an easy way to blow her nose without recirculating some of the congestion.

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It's an old argument that will never end. My '50 has the original engine and it did not look as bad as yours when I pulled the pan.

I cleaned it and ran 1/2 detergent and 1/2 non for 1 oil change interval and have used Valvoline 20W50 VR1 Racing oil (for the zinc, another endless argument :)) for a year now, changing every 3000 miles. I have a bypass filter.

So far no horrors.

I imagine my vehicle had whatever oil was available throughout its life and being I bought it from the original owner, I think as detergent oil became available, he just used it.

I guess in your case, why not just clean the pan and keep using non det.

Or you can take a risk and start using det oil and at worst, you will need a rebuild sooner ;) .

I'll let you folks know if I start having issues. :o

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Seems to me that all that stuff will dissolve sooner or later no matter what lubricant you use. I suggest you scrap, rag off, solvent off, as much as you can and reinstall the pan. If your engine is filtered replace the filter medium. Install thin detergent oil or use kerosene and run it long enough to reach temperature. Then repeat this procedure a couple of times. What do you have to lose?

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I just came in from working on cleaning and re-installing the pan....steam cleaned the inside .....sand blasted the outside. My 3500psi steam pressure washer cleaned it up pretty well with 190 degree hot water.  That stuff on the internal parts won't come off unless it's tanked.  So she's all buttoned back up with fresh non-detergent oil.  I'll install a filter next and maybe I'll get another 90K out of her.

The compression test results were ....starting with #1.....80, 82, 85, 85, 74, 76.  Not too bad really for a 5.5 compression ratio.

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Trying to find, so far unsuccessfully, what the additive packages were in the SB rated oil (then using ML, MM, MS ratings) that was available when our cars are new. Along the way I've come across references indicating that some non-detergent oil has a SA API classification while others have a SB classification. Apparently SB adds some anti-scuff protection though I haven't yet found the details of what anti-scuff additives were used nor the concentrations.

 

Anyway, if you use non-detergent oil you might want to look for stuff with an API SB label on them.

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I'm with Don and Ed. Clean everything as best you can and then keep the oil and filter fresh. Before each oil change I would add the kerosene as Don suggested or they have a crankcase flush you can get at any auto parts, run the engine for a few then drain and change. Have to consider that what you see on the walls may well be in oil passage ways such as bearing reliefs and connecting rod, cam shaft ..... lubrication passageways. They may not be working at all.

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I began "flushing" the sludge and carbon deposits out of my old engine a while back. First step was to start with a clean oil pan and to brush and flush as much of the gunk as I could reach through the valve inspection covers into a large drip tray. I used kerosene and WD40 until I got as much of it as I could. I then refitted the clean oil pan along with a new oil filter and ran detergent oil for a few hours. It came out black. Changed it a couple more times after maybe 10 or so hours of run time. Each time the oil looked a bit cleaner. I then I dropped the pan again.

 

The pan had about an inch or so of heavy black goo at the bottom. It had very obviously separated from the the engine oil and had very heavy viscosity. Sort of like cold tar.

I cleaned the pan again and ran it for around 50 hours on fresh oil. During this period the oil remained very clean looking. I then dropped the pan for a third time. More black goo but about half as much this time. This confirmed my suspicion that most these contaminants that are loosened by the detergent oil will drop out of the oil and remain in the bottom of the pan. The rest probably are trapped in the filter media of the bypass oil filter.

 

At any rate I have a sweet running engine now which does not smoke and it has quieted down considerably since I first got it running. I am just about ready to drop the pan one more time as I know there will be some more of that goo in the bottom of the pan.......but I expect it will be less than last time.

Will it ever get it all? :) That is hard to say but I am certain it is better after this treatment and that is all I can ask for.

 

Jeff

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If you got half of the goo the first time, and half of the remaining goo the second time, and so forth, you'll never get it all,  We're talking half-life.  But you're going well beyond "good enough".     

same as the beautiful girl who every time she moves closes half the distance to you...will she ever get to you....let's leave it with ' she will get close enough '

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Well yes......it probably works out to be close enough. ;)

 

One thing I would like to add to the original thought about sludge removal. I know for years people have mixed kerosene with oil and run that as a way to flush the crud out of an engine. I thought about doing that with this engine but I decided against it. Because it is really a fuel rather than a lubricant I think it would reduce the viscosity too much. And perhaps allow the sludge particles to flow along with the oil instead of separate like it has with just the detergents in the oil I am using? Might work faster than the detergent oil.......but end up doing more damage? I am fairly convinced that the method I am using has worked about as well as I have any right to expect. I am no chemist but it sure appears as if the contaminants in the engine have bonded with the detergent in the oil and have settled out as semi-solids into the bottom of the oil pan.

 

Jeff

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Jeff..read a bit more in your factory manual on lubrication in climates of severe lower temps..factory only makes specific remarks about not to dilute 5W oil with x part kerosene to provide better low temp lubrication..diluting10W and above was normal in severe weather application

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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I was surprised to find out that lacquer thinner would not remove the crud from the oil pan.  I had to resort to TSP mixed up very strong in hot water before it would begin to get down to the metal.  I then followed up with my steam cleaner.  Very stubborn stuff.

Edited by Reg Evans
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Tim;

I have seen that and other reference material on the use of kerosene. And as a lad working in a garage we used it to flush out engines when owners just added oil and never changed it. It might be OK with a full filtration system?......but I am not even certain it was such a good practice even back then.

I really think that getting the internals as clean as possible....in a safe manner....and then insuring that the crankcase stays clean through the use of a PCV valve and a better breather is the best thing for this engine. At any rate that is what I have done and I am happy with the results.

 

Reg.......I used a scraper.....and then 3M pads and solvents to get mine clean initially. I kinda think half of this crud enters through the road draft tube. I am definitely not a fan of that item :eek: Fortunately there is a much better way than using that awful thing.

 

Jeff

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Tim;

I have seen that and other reference material on the use of kerosene. And as a lad working in a garage we used it to flush out engines when owners just added oil and never changed it. It might be OK with a full filtration system?......but I am not even certain it was such a good practice even back then.

I really think that getting the internals as clean as possible....in a safe manner....and then insuring that the crankcase stays clean through the use of a PCV valve and a better breather is the best thing for this engine. At any rate that is what I have done and I am happy with the results.

 

Reg.......I used a scraper.....and then 3M pads and solvents to get mine clean initially. I kinda think half of this crud enters through the road draft tube. I am definitely not a fan of that item :eek: Fortunately there is a much better way than using that awful thing.

 

Jeff

do not read it as a flush...read it as written and referenced in the repair manual..."proper dilution of oil for temps well below freezing"

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Some brands of motor oil had some solids that when deposited resembled asphalt.  I had a 55 Chevy sedan and rebuilt the engine, even after hot tanking at the radiator shop had a residue in the inside of the block in line with each rod.  This  stuff was tuff, could not scrape it off and was not going to leave it in a fresh rebuild.  Ended up using a torch to burn the stuff off of the inside of the block.  Never did know what the residue was made off but never used esso/Humble oil again.

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do not read it as a flush...read it as written and referenced in the repair manual..."proper dilution of oil for temps well below freezing"

Tim;

I have read that. And at the time it was written this was probably the only practical method of dilution.......of course now we have better options. I can't imagine anyone actually doing it this way these days....but there is probably someone.  ;)  Another common use for kerosene in those days was as a solvent. Every garage and service station had it and used it in quantity.That was the use I was alluding to. Since it was suggested to Reg as a method of flushing the sludge out of his engine I thought that I would comment.

 

The reason I brought up kerosene in the first place was to present another way for people to look at the issue of sludge removal.  With kerosene the oil will be diluted and more than likely carry suspended particles of sludge etc throughout the engine. For obvious reasons I think that this method should be avoided.

With the use of detergent oil it appears that the majority of the sludge that is dissolved seems to bond or emulsify with the detergent additives and then drops into the bottom of the oil pan. I believe this method is a much safer way to go.

At least that is my opinion....FWIW.

 

Jeff

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kerosene is still a good solvent...and also a great fuel but not cost effective these days......I am very fond of hurricane lamps...have a number of sets in the home and are at the ready to lite when needed..I do not run the fancy store bought fuel...just lacks the certain charm I suppose...

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kerosene is still a good solvent...and also a great fuel but not cost effective these days......I am very fond of hurricane lamps...have a number of sets in the home and are at the ready to lite when needed..I do not run the fancy store bought fuel...just lacks the certain charm I suppose...

I used to use JP-4 when on shore duty.......

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