230cui engine and 3 speed overdrive

[Cpt.Fred]

although i am not quite done with my front end rebuild yet i am already opening a new front line here.

 

i am thinking about changing the brave 201 to a 230 (or whatever the largest available 23" block is) to gain a little more power.

plus i want an overdrive unit to improve highway cruising abilities.

i have been driving the 201, 3-on the tree, 4.2 rear end combo for some 20000km in the past 4 or 5 years and i'd like everything

to be a little more everyday friendly. doing 65miles all day with this rear end and no overdrive can get stressful to both engine and driver.

 

i do not want to change the character of the car completely or have to many body mods, so i will not put a V8 in or anything like that.

we built a crazy 3-carburetor intake and full split equal lenght headers for the 23" engine, that i have been running very successfully for the past years,

so i guess a 25" engine will not be an option. i do not know how different the blocks are portwise, but i imagine it won't be too easy to modify the 

existing parts. i remember reading a lot about the swap on Don's car, and it looked like quite a job to make it happen.

 

so, i have a few questions to those already enjoying a 230cui engine with overdrive.

 

how many HP and torque does the engine have in stock condition?

 

are there any possiblities to stroke it to get more cubic inches out of the 23" block?

 

are there more than one overdrive units that where used in these cars? i only read about the Borg-Warner R-10.

 

what factor ist the RPM reduction with overdrive engaged?

 

i'm a total newbie to all things overdrive, so please have mercy on me if some my questions are stupid.

 

 

thanks in advance, i looking forward to your answers!

 

Fred

Edited May 17, 2015 by Cpt.Fred

[pflaming]

It sounds as though your 201 (218) is a good running engine. I would suggest you consider putting in a 3:73 or a 3:54 Cherokee rear axle before you go to the expense of changing the engine. The hype on the 230 cu in when new was more for sales talk than for performance, at least on the cars, from what I've read.

Oh, beautiful car.

Edited May 17, 2015 by pflaming

[Cpt.Fred]

pflaming, it's a 201 in 1940. the 218 was post war, as far as i know...

i thought maybe 29cui more should be noticable?

 

when we were in sweden 2 years ago, with 3 people and fully loaded,

i noticed that i would get in trouble on steep climbs if the rear end was any longer without having more power,

so i thought i'd get an overdrive first.

 

and thanks!

Edited May 17, 2015 by Cpt.Fred

[Young Ed]

Fred as long as you find a 23" block you'll be good. All your external stuff will swap right over.

[Cpt.Fred]

Including clutch assembly? i heard about different crankshafts, so there might be different flywheels?

[Joe Flanagan]

I believe the Borg-Warner R-10 reduces RPMs by roughly one third. That's what I recall from the literature. I have one in my car and my 218 is bored out to .060 over which I think gets my displacement to around 220 or thereabouts (I did the calculation a long time ago and don't remember). When I drive 65 it's still pretty noisy but that may be body and insulation-related, I don't know. 

[timkingsbury]

although i am not quite done with my front end rebuild yet i am already opening a new front line here.

 

i am thinking about changing the brave 201 to a 230 (or whatever the largest available 23" block is) to gain a little more power.

plus i want an overdrive unit to improve highway cruising abilities.

i have been driving the 201, 3-on the tree, 4.2 rear end combo for some 20000km in the past 4 or 5 years and i'd like everything

to be a little more everyday friendly. doing 65miles all day with this rear end and no overdrive can get stressful to both engine and driver.

 

i do not want to change the character of the car completely or have to many body mods, so i will not put a V8 in or anything like that.

we built a crazy 3-carburetor intake and full split equal lenght headers for the 23" engine, that i have been running very successfully for the past years,

so i guess a 25" engine will not be an option. i do not know how different the blocks are portwise, but i imagine it won't be too easy to modify the 

existing parts. i remember reading a lot about the swap on Don's car, and it looked like quite a job to make it happen.

 

so, i have a few questions to those already enjoying a 230cui engine with overdrive.

 

how many HP and torque does the engine have in stock condition?

 

are there any possiblities to stroke it to get more cubic inches out of the 23" block?

 

are there more than one overdrive units that where used in these cars? i only read about the Borg-Warner R-10.

 

what factor ist the RPM reduction with overdrive engaged?

 

i'm a total newbie to all things overdrive, so please have mercy on me if some my questions are stupid.

 

 

thanks in advance, i looking forward to your answers!

 

Fred

Drop by my blog and you can check out an entry on  over-drives

 

http://p15-d24.com/blog/17-keeping-up-with-the-aok-boys/

 

You can pretty easily change the rear gear set (the pumpkin as I like to call it) with a period Chrysler 3;54  gear set and  you don't need to change axles, housing

etc. You can bore out the 230  1/4" or .125 thou   but likely less risky and easier to find pistons at something between 40-90 thou    You can also change things significantly

if you going to rebuild an engine with a performance cam.

 

You definitely have lots of options.

[Cpt.Fred]

thanks, joe. i remember your project and i still have many pictures from your thread saved on my computer.   1/3 less rpm sounds good to me...

 

tim, thanks a lot for the input. i'm going to study your blog and learn more on the topic.

from what i know now i'd have to get both engine and tranny in the US and have them rebuilt,

then get them shipped over. i don't know any shops here that are familiar with these engines,

even worse with the transmission... more on PM

[james curl]

The overdrive ratio should be 70% of the rear end ratio.  4.2 x 70% = the equivalent of a 2.94 rear end ratio in overdrive.  If you are turning the engine 3400 RPM in high gear at 65 stock the over drive would be turning 2380 RPM at the same speed.  The 4.2 rear is a good candidate for overdrive since most factory installed overdrives had a 4:11 rear end ratio.

[Bmartin]

Fred the car is looking sweet! I'm going the same route as you, currently in the teardown stage. Hope to be up and running by the end of September.

With a new build you can also get a power bump from increased compression.

Allpar quotes hp ranges of 110 to 132 for the 230. Who knows whats real and whats hype. But I believe 201's were 85.

[deathbound]

+1 for me.....I think this thread applies to just about everybody who doesn't have a 230/OD & doesn't want to go the long block/V8 route.

[suntennis]

Earlier rear ends may differ from 49-52 rear ends in what gears can be used. With the 49-52 cars 4.1 and 4.3 rear ends will not accommodate gears for 3.9, 3.7 or 3.5 ratios. If you change rear end gears see if they will fit your housing.

[Cpt.Fred]

thanks for all the info, guys!

the OD seems like the way to go, with 1/3 less rpm on the highway it would improve the fun considerably even with the small engine.

 

james, maybe i have a 4.11 in there, i measured by turning the drive shaft by hand... the numbers look great, just what i hoped they would.

 

thanks, Bmartin, i've seen your thread and it got me thinking... great car you got there as well. so clean, compared to mine, hehe.

 

deathbound, we seem to think alike most of the time

 

suntennis,thanks for chiming in. i guess i'll leave the rear end for later. i was told the number of splines is what makes the difference.

 

i have been snooping around my engine bay for quite some time to check all the clearances,

but moving the oem radiator 2" to the front seems to be quite difficult in a pre war body.

from what i know it gets much easier with the P15 front and aligator style hood... but we shall see.

this is not the first time i'm into this topic, back when we built the triple carb setup i was planning on getting a larger engine,

but didn't want to spend the money...

[Young Ed]

thanks for all the info, guys!

the OD seems like the way to go, with 1/3 less rpm on the highway it would improve the fun considerably even with the small engine.

 

james, maybe i have a 4.11 in there, i measured by turning the drive shaft by hand... the numbers look great, just what i hoped they would.

 

thanks, Bmartin, i've seen your thread and it got me thinking... great car you got there as well. so clean, compared to mine, hehe.

 

deathbound, we seem to think alike most of the time

 

suntennis,thanks for chiming in. i guess i'll leave the rear end for later. i was told the number of splines is what makes the difference.

 

i have been snooping around my engine bay for quite some time to check all the clearances,

but moving the oem radiator 2" to the front seems to be quite difficult in a pre war body.

from what i know it gets much easier with the P15 front and aligator style hood... but we shall see.

this is not the first time i'm into this topic, back when we built the triple carb setup i was planning on getting a larger engine,

but didn't want to spend the money...

No need to move the radiator for a 230. Your 201 a 218 and 230 all came as 23" blocks. There are also 25" ones that you are thinking of with the radiator move in 218 228 251 and 265 to name a few.

[Cpt.Fred]

ed, you're right of course. i was talking about the 251/265 in this case. the shorter 230 should fit right in.

i was drifting away in my mind a little...

[Don Coatney]

As another option the T-5 five speed overdrive transmission is a relatively easy install. Kits are now available. I am very happy with the one I have installed in my car.

[Andydodge]

Fred, when I was collecting the parts for my 230 conversion I ended up with 40thou over pistons, 9:1 Edgy Head, twin carb intake, split exhaust, 1/2 race cam and a good balance.job......all which would have hopefully upped the HP to maybe 160-180hp and was gunna use a T5 gearbox such as what Don has suggested..........I intended to get the machining done locally and assemble it myself .......if as you say you may have to get the work done in the US & import it then you will have to be sure of the shop, etc............your best bet if you don't want to go this route would be to use the 201 you have, get the head milled maybe up to 40thou, get a hipo cam ground and see how it goes then..........the only real difference I was able to find between the early 90-95 hp engines and the later 230 with 132hp was it seems the compression ratio which went from 6.7 to 8.0 : 1 from about 1956/7 till the end of the 230 use in 1959..........maybe cams were updated but I think the compression ratio would have been the main thing.........as for Dons suggestion re the T5 they are a completely self contained gearbox, no solenoids, etc just the O/d in the box and if you get the ones from the S10 pickup then the gearshift leaver is more front mounted and allows a normal bench seat..........adaptors are readily available and the whole thing is 50/60yrs more modern than the older Mopar o/d which will also be harder to find and more $$$$$ to rebuild............one other problem of course is that if you change to a T5 gearbox then you'll also have to change the rear axle as the T5 does not allow the handbrake on it.........so you'd have to find a rear axle that has the handbrake on the rear end as per a normal live axle ........so what I'd suggest would be to get the head milled on the 201, a hipo cam & balance job and then see how the car goes and maybe a different axle ratio ...........the gearbox/rear end work can wait till later..........maybe.............andyd       

[Bmartin]

 

i have been snooping around my engine bay for quite some time to check all the clearances,

but moving the oem radiator 2" to the front seems to be quite difficult in a pre war body.

from what i know it gets much easier with the P15 front and aligator style hood... but we shall see.

this is not the first time i'm into this topic, back when we built the triple carb setup i was planning on getting a larger engine,

but didn't want to spend the money...

  Here is a pic from the front with the hood off.

 

 

As you can see, the front end narrows as you come forward.  I figured I'd need to both shorten and narrow my existing radiator to move it forward more than one inch.  That just is not an option for me in AZ.  So that's why I went with the 230. 

 

I love the 3 on the tree and vintage OD units, so I am going with an R10.  But the T5 is a real quick and cheap way to get better response and highway revs.  Its very tempting, but the tree is just too cool. 

Edited May 18, 2015 by Bmartin

[Cpt.Fred]

the car has a three on the tree, as said above, and i want it to stay that way.

so i don't think a T5 is an option for me.

i need to reduce rpm on the highway and get more torque out of the engine,

these are the goals, and i think they can be achieved with a 3-speed overdrive.

plus it is more traditional in my way and would suit the car better.

 

i already did lots of stuff to soup up the 201, but i think i will need more cubes and torque,

so i''d like to get a bigger one. compression was raised seriously and a good valve job was done.

there was a noticable increase in power.

here's a reminder of what was built a few years ago, unfortunately most of the pics in the thread have vanished,

which is a sad thing. i learned a lot during the build and it was a great great process with lots of board members

involved.

 

thread:

http://p15-d24.com/topic/22357-201-hop-up-project/

 

pics:

 

 

i want it to basically stay like this, only stronger. manifold and headers will be modified to fit or changed.

 

guess i'll have another very close look at the 25" block install issue.

i'm thinking the same thing about the radiator and nose, Bmartin, but first i'll do some measuring.

again...

[Lloyd]

Including clutch assembly? i heard about different crankshafts, so there might be different flywheels?

I swapped a 218 for a 201 in my 39, I also added a 230 crankshaft to the 218. Don mentioned to me that the crankshaft flywheel flange was about 3/16 inch further back from the engine then the original. He was right, I had to get the bell housing milled where the starter bolted onto the bell housing so the starter gear would fully engage the flywheel.

Also I will be swapping the original 3 speed for an R7 OD. I have not seen an R10 but from pictures I beleive the R7 is pretty much just like the R10 and longer then the original so it will take some drive shaft adjustment to get it in, plus the gear shift linkage will not be a direct fit. I beleive the R6 is a drop in OD for my 39 but I have not been able to locate one.

Anyway, if you plan on using the same bell housing you may need to do a little adjustment due to the back flange on the 230 crank, plus it would be a good idea to check on the overall length of your current trans as compared to an R10 and look at the linkage as well.

Heres a pic of my 1938 trans compared to my R7.

[Cpt.Fred]

thanks, Lloyd.

good point on the linkage,

i always thought the gearboxes themselves were pretty much the same, but with an OD unit bolted to their rear ends...

from what i have learned on Tim's blog an R7 unit would be the drop in for mine, but again i read the nasty term

"one year only" when it came to 1940... been through that on the front end just now.

[Uncle-Pekka]

First I have to say that I really dig the way & style you have built your car, Fred.

The engine looks killer already, and just the way it should be.

 

Then I must confess that I have never done any hopping up of these engines, never before been especially interested on hopping up either...

Therefore, what I'm about to say is theoretical...

 

These MoPar flatheads are extremely mild tuned as most of the engines of the 30's period.

The compression is low, cam is mild, flow of inlet & exthaust are poor, rotating masses are big...

Therefore I would expect, it does not matter so much which particular size of an engine is the starting point, but more what you do to it.

I recall having read that the weak spot is the crankshaft if the unit will be revved high?

Thus I'd expect that 230 with long stroke would be more difficult to tune high performance than 218 with shorther stroke?

 

Personally I would be interested on means to increase the torque rather than high rev power.

Would be interested to learn the means to go there without breaking the bank...

 

There are high level experts as Earl Edgerton, George Asche, etc., probably also material published here and otherwere on blogs

Have you found/studied that material so far?

 

All the best for your exploration, Fred.

I will follow this thread with interest.

 

Cheers,
Unkka-Pekka

[plyroadking]

I'm currently running that setup in my 1940 Plymouth two door, 230, R10, and a 3.73 rear, but with a 55 dodge two barrel carb/intake rather than your neat setup.

From my experience, this is how mine was, it may not be correct or accurate, I didn't read books/manuals, just took what I had and made them work together.

It was a pretty straightforward conversion, as someone stated the 230 crank is a little longer. I took a grinder and ground the inside of my bell housing where the flywheel/pressure plate rubbed. It is important to use your original bell housing as the starter location was moved around and your clutch linkage interferes with starter on the later bell housings. I found a 55 230 and the ring gear teeth count matched the count on the blown 201 that was in my car. Some 230s do not have a hole in the end of the crank for the pilot bushing, that can probably be added but a 230 flywheel has 6 bolts rather than the 4 on the 201. My 55 block had an oil pan with the sump in the middle, it would not clear the front cross member and I had to reuse my 1940 oil pan. The 55 head was intended for a smaller temperature sending unit and the bulb for my 40 gauge wouldn't fit, I drilled and tapped the head to accommodate the 1940 sender. The thermostat housing on the 55 didn't have the bypass port and I reused my 40 housing and water pump. The 230 distributor is specific to the 230 and the shaft is releaved for the longer stroke, plus the number of degrees it advances are different.

The R10 overdrive bolted in and I was able to run the original 1940 driveshaft, there was a little linkage adjustment using the adjustments provided on the original 1940 linkage. My original speedometer cable was long enough to reuse.

My 1940 has 10 spline axle shafts that are longer than other years, the 3.73 I found had 10 splines and the third member bolted right into the housing. Don't know what year/make it came out of. I have a 3.56 out of a 55 dodge and it has 16 spline but will still bolt into the 1940 housing.

Hopefully this helps,

Andy

[greg g]

Fred, here is a basic rule of thumb for how these engines might feel.  Your modified 201 probably acts like a stock 218.  The same stuff on a 218 is like a stock 230, and the same stuff on a 230 probably feels like a stock 251.  Assuming they are in relatively the same state of mechanical condition.  My 230 came from a 56 Plymouth as was rated at the flywheel at 3600 rpm for 125 hp.  So 40 more than the stock 201.  With my mods dual carbs, .030 pistons, and .040 off the head, it feels pretty strong.  I had it on a chassis dyno a few years back.  Their charts did not go back far enough for the aero drag HP so we looked at a couple of late model mini vans and put in 50 HP which was in the neighborhood of several different ones.  With the car at 3200 rpm (62mph) the reading at the rear wheels was 122 HP. Might have been a bit higher at 3600 but I didn't want to go there as 62 is my cruising speed. This just about makes up for the drive train loss which is usually 20 to 25%.  I know I can keep up easily with Don C's modified 251, but mine is in a bizzy coupe as opposed to his 4 door.  Mark Aubuchon has a similar set up in a 49 bizzy coupe and he has a ticket from the Mopar National Drags for the quarter mile at 19.6 or so and around 67 MPH if I am not mistaken.  So Wartburgs, and DKWs and Wanderers will tremble in you presence if you go the 230 route, maybe even a few built up Beetles also. The OD will relax your highway travels and still leave you with the gears for those impromptu acceleration contests.

[timkingsbury]

  Here is a pic from the front with the hood off.

 

P1200468 (800x600).jpg

 

As you can see, the front end narrows as you come forward.  I figured I'd need to both shorten and narrow my existing radiator to move it forward more than one inch.  That just is not an option for me in AZ.  So that's why I went with the 230. 

 

I love the 3 on the tree and vintage OD units, so I am going with an R10.  But the T5 is a real quick and cheap way to get better response and highway revs.  Its very tempting, but the tree is just too cool. 

I am going to do some looking around for examples as the 1940 Plymouth in every model but the convertible was also assembled in Windsor Ontario Canada and had the 25 1/2" big block in them right from the factory.  I cant imagine that they would have two different rads, one for the USA and one for the Canadian assembled cars but I am not 100% sure. But with several seeming to be interested I  will do some digging. 

 

On the floor shift overdrive,  I am not going to enter the t5 debate,  other than to say if you are considering a floor shift overdrive transmission, a later model a833 overdrive provides a good alternative and  from what I see in the various t5 conversions maybe less effort than the t5.   Just providing another option,  if and key word if,  you want a floor shift.