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Labrauer
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Hey guys I am open for suggestions on where I should start the tear down on the engine again. I had the 218 Plymouth engine overhauled a couple of week ago and she seemed to run fine but now I hear a knock on number 5 or 6 cylinder. I took my stethoscope and tried to find out where the noise was coming from so I checked the tappets area, then went to the head it self. Started at number one cylinder and worked my way to number 6. The closer I got to number 6 the louder the noise got until it was pretty loud between 5 and 6. My question is do I start by removing the oil pan and disconnect number 6 piston rod bearing to see if a bearing has spun or do I take the head back off and start there? 

 

I just hate to take the head back off again so is there any way to see what might be wrong with the oil pan dropped? Any how what is you all suggestion on what might have gone wrong and the best way to fix it?

 

Thanks,

Larrypost-3724-0-64328700-1424758466_thumb.jpg

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At the time of rebuild did you verify and record the very clearances of all piston clearance within the cylinders, proper wrist pins clearance, rod and main bearings by use of a plastic gauge and visually determine the crank for being in 'round' and of a finish to ensure proper bearing surface to prevent premature wear..?  Did you record these findings for evidence in future troubleshooting?  In the absence that possibly you did not rebuild this yourself but entrusted to a shop, did they in turn provide these clearance values to you and ensure that all tolerances were within specs?  We all hear the terms balance and blueprint...these are nothing but the very taking and recording of the step and components when assembling an engine.  They are not just words used frivolously...the terms apply at all times and steps involved regardless of who is building

 

Unfortunately there is little other way to inspect the condition of said components without removal of the pan and if in the event of piston or wrist pin, removal of the head.

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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No the clearances was not taken but I do know that the pistons are 60 over and the crank was turned 10/10 with the correct bearings installed. Could it be that the piston rod got reversed and put in wrong? I would think not because it it was I think you would have heard the knocking when cranked up. If I do pull the head and the pan how hard is it to change the piston rod bearing or anything else. 

 

Larry

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Only a teardown can provide you with the data needed to find and  hopefully fix the problem.  As for rod oil hole alignment...you should be able to determine this without pulling the head.  You can further do some testing prior to pan removal by testing the back cylinders for noise by removing the spark plug wire when running and listen for noise abatement or change in pitch/volume.  This may help determine if lower end or something higher like skirt knock or wrist pin.  What has the oil pressure been since first start to that of the noise appearing?

 

it is unfortunate that you are having early problems.  This is not fun for anyone.  I have not so long ago seen an engine returned to a person from the machine shop and just bolted together without regard to the above stated checks and neither did the man do a follow up cleaning of the block prior to this assembly.  This resulted in a 10 miles engine before it ate itself internally.  NO machine shop is infallible.  It is the very checks that give you peace of mind on the build.  Oh for sure things can even go wrong after that fact but they are greatly lessened with adherence to maintaining specs.

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I know this story of mine may not help but when I was young and silly I decided to restore the 1940 Dodge.........I was a pen pushing public servant so I removed the engine and took it to what I was told was the best "old" engine rebuilder in the whole city............I had the engine fully rebuilt, supposedly pistons, rings, bearings, lifters, timing chain etc, etc............and I got the engine back with the sump & head bolted on......installed the engine myself, and after about 1000 miles the rear main started to leak..........pulled the sump to check the rear main and found metal filings/shavings in the sump...........pulled the main caps and found scored bearings........went back to the "best" old engine builder who promptly told me I had stuffed up the engine.........vowed then and there to never allow anyone to assemble an engine for me again............pulled the stock running gear..........installed the 318 Poly, auto etc and a couple of years later decided to rebuild the Poly..........removed it, had it fully rebuilt, pistons, rings, bearings, full balance and ASSEMBLED it myself........this was in 1975 and its been in there ever since running just fine and dandy..............I am still just a glorified pen pusher, well maybe a bit more experienced now but essentially just an unqualified person but I can follow a workshop manual............. but by all means get the machining etc done by the best shop you can find BUT assemble it yourself..........I wish you all the best in this but until you pull the sump at the very least you will not know how things stand.............good luck...............Andy Douglas    

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Maybe take a peek at the crankshaft flywheel bolts.  One of them may have backed off a bit  and is now contacting the block.  After that, the pan would be my next choice for removal.  Almost all the moving parts can be viewed and inspected from there.

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Took the oil pan off this afternoon and took number 6 piston rod bearing out to find ware spots and the dog ear on the upper bearing gone.Don't know what happened there but the bearing looked like this engine had been running for years. Took number 5 out too with the same results. Went to number one and did the same to find a grove in the center of the bearing like there was something on the crank when assembled but I know for a fact I cleaned it before it was assembled. Number two showed the same ware on the rod bearings as did the rest. tomorrow I am going to get a mike and mike the crank shaft to see what the bearings are suppose to be and get some new ones. On the number one rod on the crank it looks as if there is a grove on the crank like they didn't finish the turning. I hope that is not the case I would hate to have to pull the crank again. I did use some engine lube that has (as I seen tonight) had some graphite in it. This grease is recommended on all engine impassably from be

 

 

arings to ect. In this re-install of the bearings I will be going with white grease lubricate type grease and hopefully things will be getting better.

Edited by Labrauer
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Took the oil pan off this afternoon and took number 6 piston rod bearing out to find ware spots and the dog ear on the upper bearing gone.Don't know what happened there but the bearing looked like this engine had been running for years. Took number 5 out too with the same results. Went to number one and did the same to find a grove in the center of the bearing like there was something on the crank when assembled but I know for a fact I cleaned it before it was assembled. Number two showed the same ware on the rod bearings as did the rest. tomorrow I am going to get a mike and mike the crank shaft to see what the bearings are suppose to be and get some new ones. On the number one rod on the crank it looks as if there is a grove on the crank like they didn't finish the turning. I hope that is not the case I would hate to have to pull the crank again. I did use some engine lube that has (as I seen tonight) had some graphite in it. This grease is recommended on all engine impassably from be

arings to ect. In this re-install of the bearings I will be going with white grease lubricate type grease and hopefully things will be getting better.

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Lubriplate 105, white lith engine assembly lube, been using it for years and prefer it to the modern assembly lubes, especially when an engine isn't going to be installed and fired fairly soon. It's still in place months later where I feel the liquid lubes tend to run off.

Should probably check the mains as well. Contamination could have come from the lube passages in the crank or left overs from the block passages. Those will need to be flushed as well.

Edited by Dave72dt
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Well after all this discussion on the engine I have found out what the problem seems to be. Hold on to your seat because when I found out I exploded. Took the night to calm down but now I know to not let a five year old near an engine alone. 

It seems that my five year old grandson had some fun putting rocks in of the holes of the block. Didn't find out till last night. My wife asked him if it was just one and he said he put a lot in there holy crap I lost it then. I swear if he didn't have C.P. ( Cerlible pulsey). I would have whore his little ass out where he couldn't sit for a week but I just bit my lip and left the room. Now I have to pull the damn engine out of the car again and start all over which makes my blood bowl to know end. I sure as hell hope it only messed up the bearings and not anything else or I think I will just have to be a baby and cry. 

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man..tough luck...bad part is once in the galleries you have cam, main and rod bearing damage...possible damage to the journals of the cam and crank and then do not forget the oil pump itself may have ingested a lot o grit and has damaged the rotor surfaces..I would suggest a total inspection of the bottom end as a start...I cannot believe that you dropped the pan and did not find these rocks immediately...the rocks them selves of any size should not have made it past the pick up ....

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Well I did find something in the bottom of the pan like shavings and there seemed to be some grit but no big rocks or what I would have thought as a rock. I don't know what size of rocks he put in there as we have anywhere from brick size to pin head size here on the farm. I have got to cool off before I start on anything that pertains to the engine right now. Got to figure out what is my best way to go about this disaster. I just hope this $2,000 dollars is not all down the drain washed away.

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from the picutres you sent me it appeared in all likelihood to be metal shavings etc as is normal residue on the machining of the block and crank.  If the child place a lot of stuff int here you woul dhave that all over the place in the bottom of the oil pan.   Machine shops do not take the time to clean a crank and block to great degree of cleanliness unless they are going to assemble the block.  Cleaning all passages with a bore brush and cleaner followed by a soap and water wash up and rodding the oil passages in the crank with clean lint free cloth..I would separate that grit and do a solvent wash of the oil say inside a paint strainer and look at the residue to determine if organic or metallic...

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Maybe it wouldn't hurt to have your wife ask him which hole he put the rocks down.  Given the limited number of places it could have gone, there are options depending on how far the engine was assembled at the time.  For all you know, they could have been placed in the bellhousing if the starter was off at the time or into the water jackets if the head was off or thermostat hsg off.  At this point, there's no going back only forward.  The damage  can't be undone.  somewhat like getting furious about a vehicle accident after the fact..  Even when preventable, you can't undo it once it's happened.

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Well after all this discussion on the engine I have found out what the problem seems to be. Hold on to your seat because when I found out I exploded. Took the night to calm down but now I know to not let a five year old near an engine alone. 

It seems that my five year old grandson had some fun putting rocks in of the holes of the block. Didn't find out till last night. My wife asked him if it was just one and he said he put a lot in there holy crap I lost it then. I swear if he didn't have C.P. ( Cerlible pulsey). I would have whore his little ass out where he couldn't sit for a week but I just bit my lip and left the room. Now I have to pull the damn engine out of the car again and start all over which makes my blood bowl to know end. I sure as hell hope it only messed up the bearings and not anything else or I think I will just have to be a baby and cry. 

 

I hope you wouldn't whore his little ass out. As bad as it is, you really can't blame him.....chock it up as an expensive learning experience.

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