Shaving Weight off the P15

[Ulu]

One of my goals in stripping Edith d' Plymouth down to the bare frame is that I wan't to lighten the car a bit.

 

So far all I've done is strip off 50 lbs of dirt & bondo, and there's at least another 10 lbs of dirt to go.

 

But I also intend to strip the bumpers and aprons, because not only do they weigh a lot, but the Edith handles much better without the weight of those bumpers at the extreme ends of the car. If you must add weight the very middle of the car is the best spot, and if you're removing weight, the extreme ends (and in fact the whole periphery of the car) is the best place to remove it.

 

Swapping to a modern engine and trans could shave a lot of weight, but I may decide to keep using the flathead, so I'm thinking an aluminum head would be nice & a light modern starter, reworked to fit the 230 six.

 

Also, I want to replace the boat anchor radiator with an aluminum one. That front seat is very heavy too, and it may get tossed out. A modern rear axle would mean I can ditch the stock parking brake band and drum assy.

 

I'll put modern disk brakes in with aluminum cylinders, so there will be some savings from the porky stock pedal/master cyl arrangement.

 

So aside from leaving the back seat, jack and spare tire out, where else will it be practical to shave some weight off this old gal?

 

 

Edited November 27, 2014 by Ulu

[Plymouthy Adams]

I get the impression you want to at least win against a PUCH moped in a street race..and....you have a good chance as long as there are no curves involved

Edited November 27, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[DJ194950]

You could have the body acid dipped to remove as much metal (and weight) as possible and still retain the shape!

 

They did that in the late fiftys-60's ?? for strictly drag cars. The didn't worry about any longevity as the were old 40's bodies were cheap back then.  Just wins mattered!

 

If not worried about the body being around in 10-20 years?? 

 

Just kidding!

 

DJ

[Ulu]

 

I get the impression you want to at least win against a PUCH moped in a street race..and....you have a good chance as long as there are no curves involved

 

 

HehHehheh...remember when the Allstate was a Puch?

 

Even in her porkiest day Edith would easily outrun my buddy's dual-carb flathead Ford 2dr sedan (well I did have over 8:1 compression, straight thru exhaust & a holly carb.) 

 

As for curves, the handling improved a lot when lowered a bit, with the addition of KYB Gas-A-Just shocks, and a rear sway bar from a '74 T-bird. It would be even better with a front shock relocation kit.

 

So while it'll never be a Porsche, that doesn't mean it can't be improved.

 

Oh, yeah...aluminum wheels. I'll probably run aluminum wheels to save weight.

Edited November 27, 2014 by Ulu

[Ulu]

You could have the body acid dipped . . .

 

It's been "restored" before so the body has been sanded & is getting sanded some more. I suspect it'll mostly be rather thinner than stock before I'm through. 

 

I've considered paying to dip the body, but I'd hate to get acid into all the creases and seams. It's hard to get back out of the old dirty seams.

 

What I'm really thinking about is lightening the frame a little. This car has a very stout frame.

 

Of course in the old days I'd just throw away the hood too, but that's not in the cards.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have never in my life been guilty of using a disc sander to strip a body at any time...I will use a DA but as we know there are no sparks there..no sparks..no metal removal..

 

As for making the car lighter....for handling and acceleration...what is the trade off and the time/money involved...I could attach a JATO to a frogs butt and in the end he is still a frog..slightly charred but a frog nonetheless..

 

I run alloy wheels on most all my cars and the 48 will  not be an exception...alloys, twin pipes, tinted glass and tiara trim will be the only exterior mods that will tip you off to the more 'less than subtle' changes inside and under the hood..

[Ulu]

Plymouthy, you are a real card.     

 

I have never in my life been guilty of using a disc sander to strip a body at any time...

 

Ummm....That makes one of us.....

 

Actually, most of my stripping has been ZipStrip, DA sander, wire brush & scotchbrite so far. But there's been lots of sparks & there's serious body work that'll require sanding for sure.

 

...but WTH is Tiara trim?      The backlite garnish? I got no clue there.

 

 

Re making the car lighter:

 

Any racer will tell you that reducing weight is the cheapest performance improvement you can make. Once I started doing it, it was far more effective than I'd previously imagined. I can't stop now!

 

 

Re time:

 

Time is no issue. I already drove this car 65,000 miles so it's not like I'm wetting my pants because I can't wait to drive it again. This is my hobby and I do it to occupy my time (and for exercise.) It'll take whatever time I let it take & that's fine.

 

While some folks maintain that there's no substitute for cubic inches, I suspect this car will never wind up with some porky elephant engine in it. I'm leaning toward modern aluminum under the hood if I can bring myself to spend the money required.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Tiara trim...well it is .........................wait and see.........!!!  Car will debut with the trim after the paint job....and the paint job is around the corner...and the corner...well we never set dates so could be anytime down the road..

 

along with shaving weight....you may benefit from also lighten the rotating mass a bit....

 

AND there is now on the market new super light weight alloy wheels with the proper center opening, correct 5 x 4.5 bolt pattern and 4.5 width at 16 inch diameter..you would never believe how light in weight these thing are......and...you can get rubber for these quite easily and have the look of stock height/width....I snagged a set of 5 and intend to use them primarly on my '62 Volvo 544....BUT today was looking at possible use of one as a spare rim/tire for the bz cp......

[mayflower48]

A file does not make sparks, but it will remove metal.  Just a thought.

[timkingsbury]

One of my goals in stripping Edith d' Plymouth down to the bare frame is that I wan't to lighten the car a bit.

 

So far all I've done is strip off 50 lbs of dirt & bondo, and there's at least another 10 lbs of dirt to go.

 

But I also intend to strip the bumpers and aprons, because not only do they weigh a lot, but the Edith handles much better without the weight of those bumpers at the extreme ends of the car. If you must add weight the very middle of the car is the best spot, and if you're removing weight, the extreme ends (and in fact the whole periphery of the car) is the best place to remove it.

 

Swapping to a modern engine and trans could shave a lot of weight, but I may decide to keep using the flathead, so I'm thinking an aluminum head would be nice & a light modern starter, reworked to fit the 230 six.

 

Also, I want to replace the boat anchor radiator with an aluminum one. That front seat is very heavy too, and it may get tossed out. A modern rear axle would mean I can ditch the stock parking brake band and drum assy.

 

I'll put modern disk brakes in with aluminum cylinders, so there will be some savings from the porky stock pedal/master cyl arrangement.

 

So aside from leaving the back seat, jack and spare tire out, where else will it be practical to shave some weight off this old gal?

 

p15a.jpg

 

DSCF7854.JPG

 

 

If you goal is to drop the weight..  with all the work and money your throwing around,  what you want to do is exactly what Lee Petty did because he wanted to

lower the weight..  Buy a 1949 plymouth business coupe.  It will start off lighter than what you will have. 

 

Changing the rad, nets you nothing if you put a modern multi core rad in. I have weighed them. Starter,  yes, but it is definately not a major gain.  The alunimum head 13 pounds. Modern disc brakes nets you about 20 pounds, however its lots of work and I prefer to actually put bigger brakes on them, by taking a 1950-1955 chrysler with 12" brakes and changing them over, but you gain 5 pounds dont loose any.  But hey, bore the engine out 80 tho and the added hp will more than compensate !

 

You can drop 40 pounds if you want to put a light weight alunimum  flywheel in there and you can put in an auburn clutch and pressure plate and loose more weight.

 

Weight out the rear ends before you start that swap as I am not sure you wont wind up increasing your weight. I tend to put 3:54 gears (just the pumpkin) out of a chrysler to give me more streetable speed, but that doesnt loose weight.

 

You can take out the inner fenders, and put in plastic ones or fab fiberglass ones,,, sure loose the back seat, but again, switch to a 1949 plymouth business coupe and you drop more than all the weight your trying to loose !

[Don Coatney]

Cut the top off. It never rains in Fresno. Get rid of the wet cell and go with a dry cell battery. Dump the generator for an alternator. Aluminum 3 core radiator is a lot lighter than the honeycomb but hard to tell how much lime and slime has solidified in the core of the original radiator. Remove the heater and glove box as heat and gloves are not required in Fresno. Remove the wiper motor and hardware as it is also not required in Fresno. Remove all door glass as it is not required all year long in Fresno. Swiss cheese the frame rails. And while you are at it cut out the sugar frosted flakes, ice cream, and pecan pie.

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

mayflower48, on 26 Nov 2014 - 10:03 PM, said:

A file does not make sparks, but it will remove metal.  Just a thought.

while that is true...the file would be clogged in about two passes and thus useless to cut metal due to that fact...and would immediately quit removing paint...majority of all cars I strip are first gone over with a razor blade...

[Robert Horne]

My 5 speed TKO Ranger transmission is aluminum, which may be a little less weight, than

the original 3 speed.      The stock bell housing is very heavy though.

  The 5 speed did not gain me more power, but it did make my 38

more of a pleasure to drive.

I use a large Interstate battery, installed over the rear axle area,

taking some of the weight off the front, for better balance.

   A smaller quality battery may be just as good, or like Don C states, a dry cell...

 

[Ulu]

Thanks for the suggestions folks.

 

And Don, I'll certainly run an alternator, but I'm probably not going to cut off the roof.

 

At one point I was wanting to build a shaved roadster with a Duval-style windscreen, but I've totally chickened out.

 

I certainly want to lighten the brakes and wheels. Unsprung mass is just more work for the antique suspension.

 

Frankly certain people may find themselves upset by reading this; but since I can afford a new Tacoma, I'm considering parting out my lo-mileage '09 and filling the Plymouth with Mexican-made Japanese aluminum and computers. Anti-traditional at its extreme!

 

I don't give a hoot about what engine goes in what car myself. See, I'm not in love with the things. It's just machinery.

 

But the complication of all that conversion is very off-putting; even if it would net me a weight drop plus an extra 130 HP. 

Edited November 28, 2014 by Ulu

[deathbound]

Drilled backing plates...or anything else that isn't structural.

[BobT-47P15]

I actually put a little additional weight (two sandbags) just behind the rear seat on my convert as the rear end feels

a bit light and squirrelly to me.  And I have not removed any weight otherwise.  But it probably is not as fast as

yours will eventually be.  

 

Hmmm............Tim............tiara trim over the roof a-la a 70s Chrysler product?????    

[Plymouthy Adams]

BobT-47P15, on 28 Nov 2014 - 04:13 AM, said:

I actually put a little additional weight (two sandbags) just behind the rear seat on my convert as the rear end feels

a bit light and squirrelly to me.  And I have not removed any weight otherwise.  But it probably is not as fast as

yours will eventually be.  

 

Hmmm............Tim............tiara trim over the roof a-la a 70s Chrysler product?????    

Tiara..(by my description) not landau or Targa band..nor an official crown molding...just something so NOT TO BE like the bz cp next to me..

[Ulu]

...  Buy a 1949 plymouth business coupe.  It will start off lighter than what you will have. 

 

Hell, by that philosophy, I should just buy a Ford.

 

Nah...this is sorta run whatcha brung here. What ever I do, I do to this car.

[greg g]

What weight does your documentation show for your car?  The Pennsylvania paper work I got for mine from the original owner shows the weight at 2797 for my 46 Business Coupe.  Other than the heater there are no other options on mine.

[Ulu]

California doesn't weigh non-commercial vehicles.

I don't have a clue what it really weighs, and no way to tell as it's currently in 1000 pieces.

[Don Coatney]

Thanks to forum member Bill Story this might help.

 

 

mrwrstory, on 09 Nov 2014 - 4:50 PM, said:

Are you in luck or what???????  So happens,.........

-

The car has a V8 and auto trans.  The blue italic numbers are the weights with me on board.

 

 

[Ulu]

Don, the stock car has much the same weight distribution, which is one reason why the P15 handles so well. I was always pleased with the overall handling of the car, except the tendancy to pogo (under severe discomposure) and bumpsteer a bit.

 

It could only get better IMO, with a slight weight reduction, mostly in the front.

 

Thanks for the chart and photo.

[Ulu]

BTW, I didn't believe the Buiness Coupe was over 600# lighter!

 

I knew those seats were heavy, but.....???

[Young Ed]

BTW, I didn't believe the Buiness Coupe was over 600# lighter!

 

I knew those seats were heavy, but.....???

 

You've also got less glass and roof although the bigger trunk probably makes up for the smaller roof. Also no window mechanisms for the back windows.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Young Ed

[Ulu]

(oops...)

Edited December 1, 2014 by Ulu