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Car is back together but still won’t start!


perrymedik

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Easy flooding is often dirt, but sometimes points to a heavy float. It'll shut off the float needle, but it comes open too easily.

 

Floats can leak or just pick up crud, making them too heavy. Also sometimes the little hinge on the float gets bent & straightened, changing the leverage ratio.

If both of those happen, it can really throw the float off.

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Update 4:

 

So I tried to test the timing using the link shel_ny offered up (http://p15-d24.com/p...ips.html#static) to test/set the static timing.  I was trying to use this test lamp as the "neon light" that it talked about.

 

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/perrymedik/media/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/Photoon11-5-14at1015AM.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1

 

It worked when I was spinning the motor with the starter and showed that I was getting power to all of the plugs, but when I tried the static test of rotating the distributor with #1 TDC I didn't get any light.

 

Next I tried using this tester:

 

http://s245.photobucket.com/user/perrymedik/media/1949%20P-18%20Rebuild%20Project/Photoon11-4-14at752PM-1.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

 

But still with no luck.  Both times I had the non-plug end attached to the Positive Ground terminal of the battery.  Both times, no light.

 

Are both of these lights the incorrect type to use for the test that the link refers to?

 

I am going to double check that the Distributor isn't installed 180 degrees out.  Since #1 cylinder has 0 PSI compression right now after sitting for 5 years, I will see when the #6 pushes air out (Compression stroke) and then the next time #1 comes up I will assume that is its Compression stroke.  Then I will see where the rotor is pointing (7 o'clock or 2 o'clock).  If it is at the 2 o'clock then I will rotate it by 180 degrees and see what happens then.  But I still won't know if it is getting power correctly until I can figure out the test light problem.

 

I will also attempt to take a video of it turning and maybe that will offer up some more clues to help all of you awesome folks!

 

Also, how do I install a remote starter switch in the engine compartment?  I am working on this alone and don't have anyone to sit in the care and bump the engine for me with the key.

Again, I can't tell you how thankful I am for all of your help!!

 

Cory

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Plymouth Adams: I am very sorry, I tried to respond to your initial question but for some reason when I try to quote it, it won't display.

 

So as to your first query you asked “have you even consulted your repair manual for any of the ignition tests and or looked into the carb section for setting/checking float operation/height”

 

My reply was: Ouch! LOL!  Yes I have.  I do have a Service Manual.  Unfortunately all of the sections that deal with the carb adjustments begin with “With the motor running” which puts me in a uniquely awkward position as I can’t get the darn thing to run. J

 

As for ignition tests, I have read that section as well.  The link I referred to talks about using #1 Cylinder, the book talks about using #6, but says I can use either #1 or #6.

 

I have read and thumbed through this Service Manual so much that the pages are turning a pretty shade of greyish red from the oil and rust on my fingers as I try to absorb everything.

 

I would like to assure you and everyone else that I read the Service Manual as well as look at the diagrams of the Parts Manual and try to follow them well before I come to the board for help.  I will admit that the books may very well give me the answer and I may be too dense to understand what it is saying, and folks breaking it down ‘Barney Style’ for me is an immense help.

 

Unfortunately I am not a mechanic and have limited experience.  However, if you have something wrong with your body, then I am in my element as that is my profession.

 

I am truly grateful to everyone for offering me both their time and knowledge!!!  I have been given excellent guidance every time the books or Google have failed me (Which is frequently).

 

Very respectfully,

Cory

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you only need the engine running to fine tune the carburetor...it is a mechanical device with basic presets...the book has a very good section to walk you through its disassembly and clean up...walk through this IN ORDER...if you have no understanding of how the carb works...how it transitions from idle to run and also the source of the fuel for the three circuits..you need to study and read the section closely...the float must float...inspect for holes..if heavy or sloshing internal..you got a leaking unit..repair is easy...your accelerator pump must be operative to transition smoothly

 

ignition circuit same advice...learn how it operates from voltage supplied to the coil and proper saturation during the point closed period for a proper spark...use of a dwell meter is best...especially if you have used points...and given the number of time you have tried to start this car and who knows how many times it has sat and for how long with closed points and power supplied..you have not even confirmed TDC in relationship to the distributor to ensure you are not 180 out...read this section a number of times till you truly understand the timing of an engine..form crank to cam via chain, relationship of the cam to distributor and the very importance of having the rotor positioned correctly to the distributor tower and correct firing order and rotation should this not exactly match the book..book 7:00 is reference..over the years for various other maintenance actions this could well be wrong today.  Also a question asked..are you 100% sure the rotor and cap is the right one for your distributor...there are two...you must buy these by distributor model...

 

you will need to do a good number of test and adjustments/presets per the book before you can expect this thing to run...only by knowing for certain that the steps you are taking are done in proper order to proper specs can you go forward with reasonable assurance that these sections are right and ready to go..

 

as a beginner you will hit bumps along the way..to be expected...but I cannot stress the importance of following procedures enough...even seasoned mechanics overlook some very easy fixes because..it just seems to frivolous to be wrong...those assumption will nail your hide to the wall every time...

 

do yourself another favor and try to find a mentor for your area...go to a local cruise or other related event and get to know some of the guys who are running period car/drivetrains and do not be afraid to ask for help...they will do more for a sincere request than try to separate BS jargon from a dire need for guidance...good luck

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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Plymouth Adams: Thank you for the reply!

 

Every time offers advice I write it down on a check list on my steno pad to make sure that I get it done.  This is the second time you have told me to verify that my Rotor and Cap are correctly matched.

 

Shamefully I did write it down the first time in a series of steps of things to do, but since I put the spark tester on my plugs and it did light, I skipped right past the verification step and assumed it was good.

 

I know that when I bought a new cap and rotor 3 years ago I didn't have this information, and probably picked up what ever was in the store.  After digging around in the engine compartment to see the plate on the distributor (Very inconveniently placed by the way) I was able to find the numbers and match them up to the numbers in my Service Manual (Gasp!).  Calling around to the stores they all carry IGS cap and rotors, but have to order the IAP type that would match to my distributor.  This leads me to believe I do in fact have the wrong set up.  I have ordered the matching type and they should be here tomorrow.

 

I guess a question that surfaces in my mind is, if this is truly is the incorrect cap and rotor, why would my Inline sparkplug tester still light?  I’m going to Google that, as well as the difference between IGS and IAP.

 

Thanks again for your help, and I’m going to re-read all of those section you have suggested to make sure I have the correct understanding of what everything is doing!

 

Cory

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though it is possible to get a spark and the car may even try to run it would not run efficiently as the spark gap is too great inside the cap to guarantee a consistent spark of proper voltage...remember it takes voltage to jump a gap...and just for giggles when you drag your feet across the carpet and get the 'shock of your life' it takes minimum of 4000 volts static to generate that little audible click you hear...

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Your test light flashes when you crank your engine but not when you attempt to statically time the ignition?

 

Keep this in mind: The test light is being driven by the points opening and closing. So to statically time the engine:

 

1. With the engine off and at "top dead center", connect the 6v test light between ground and the low tension wire to the distributor.

 

If the points are closed the low resistance path with be through them and your 6v test light will be off.

 

If the points are open the path to ground from the coil will be through the 6v light and it will be on.

 

2. You need to rotate the distributor body to the position where the light just turns on (points open).

 

3. Lock the distributor in place.

 

It is that easy.

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I posted this response in another thread about static timing last July. This may be of some assistance to you.

Don Coatney, on 28 Jun 2014 - 3:40 PM, said:

My car had been running really good until I went for a drive yesterday. My engine developed a slight irregular misfire with no repeatable pattern. I suspected an issue with adjustment of my dual point setup so the first thing I did was pull my distributor. I set up my bench test using an electric drill, power supply, and test coil. I found a slight variation in dwell angle. I made a very slight adjustment in point gap and corrected that issue.

 

Prior to pulling the distributor I brought the engine to TDC and noted the rotor position. Having made the slight point adjustment I re-installed the distributor and positioned it very close to the same position it was in when I removed it. I made an attempt to fire the engine and it was a no go. I made attempts to fire the engine with my remote starter button and a hot wire under the hood while turning the distributor under the hood and it was all a no go. I connected my timing light while cranking the engine with the starter and found my timing was a good way off from TDC. So I brought the engine to TDC using the starter motor. I pulled the plug wire from #1 spark plug and connected it to a spare plug sitting on the head. I then (without spinning the engine) moved the powered up distributor until I was getting spark exactly at TDC correctly static timing the engine.

 

As I had been spinning the engine a lot with no fire I suspected my plugs may be fowled so I removed them and sand blasted them. While the plugs were out I also used an air gun down the plug holes to clear the cylinders of any flooding. Reinstalled the plugs, hit the starter button, and the engine fired right up. I then used my timing light to dial it in.

 

So my point being correct engine timing is a very small window. If you take the time to insure your engine is correctly static timed and all other system problems are corrected the chance of starting is greatly improved.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

drill2.jpg

 

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OK, so the tester light lights, which means some kind of a spark is being made. It might still be cap/rotor, but could be a damaged capacitor.

 

I had one that looked like new but the wire was just barely hanging there. The engine cranked but never fired, and when I touched that wire it came loose in my hand.

 

I had boosted my compression, so my flathead was a bit harder to start, but generally the compression on these engines is low enough to hand crank.

Does it try to start at all? Or just dead sounding? If you're flooding a little, but it's getting a healthy spark, it should pop or backfire or something when you crank it.

 

If it's flooding a lot you'll hear nothing. All that gas is drowning the fire.

Edited by Ulu
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First thing first.  You said I connected to positive ,,,,(of battery).  Dont ask how I know but 50 year ago when I thought i knew something and didnt,,,I learned,,,6 volt battery in backward will crank engine backward. No fire heard but probably was there tho backward.

 

SO do you still have a 6Volt system?  Ground strap on positive and negative to starter solenoid .  Backward of what we are used to and common use today.

 

You said your tester was connected to positive,,,,in this system negative is hot.  If turned around results may switch in a hurry.

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OK I read back & saw the post about the missing plug. Now that that's plugged, perhaps the car's just not getting much gas. You need a rich mix to start, particularly when it's cold out.

 

Can you tell if the engine's getting gas? When you look down the carb and pump the throttle linkage, can you see the accelerator pump squirting gas into the carb throat?

 

BTW, the starter relay I used has a little button on it that you push to manually crank the engine. It won't start without the key on, but I can crank it from under the hood without a jumper.

 

I've modified stock Ford relays to have that little button too.

 

Anyhow, if you just put a small hole in the steel cover on the relay, you can push the plunger with swizzle stick or something small & plastic or wood (not metal.) That will crank it.

Edited by Ulu
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Grdpa's 50 Dodge, on 06 Nov 2014 - 6:47 PM, said:Grdpa's 50 Dodge, on 06 Nov 2014 - 6:47 PM, said:

First thing first.  You said I connected to positive ,,,,(of battery).  Dont ask how I know but 50 year ago when I thought i knew something and didnt,,,I learned,,,6 volt battery in backward will crank engine backward. No fire heard but probably was there tho backward.

 

SO do you still have a 6Volt system?  Ground strap on positive and negative to starter solenoid .  Backward of what we are used to and common use today.

 

You said your tester was connected to positive,,,,in this system negative is hot.  If turned around results may switch in a hurry.

I am having trouble reading what you said about engine cranking backward if polarity is reversed...these starter are not permanent magnet DC motors..there is no running backward even when swapping polarity......

 

external test equipment using battery supply from the car...connect + to + and - to - regardless of the car's polarity...

Edited by Plymouthy Adams
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Also, how do I install a remote starter switch in the engine compartment?  I am working on this alone and don't have anyone to sit in the care and bump the engine for me with the key.

Again, I can't tell you how thankful I am for all of your help!!

 

Cory

 One lead from the remote switch to the terminal that the battery connects to on the solenoid. Other lead to the terminal that goes from the solenoid to the starter. With key on you will then bypass the solenoid with your remote switch.

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I added alligator clips to a spare starter button and use it under the hood wired as Shel suggested. Word of caution. Make sure the transmission is in neutral and the key off when using this remote switch. 

 

I have converted my car to 12 volts. I am using a 4 pole Ford starter solenoid in my car. The 4th pole goes hot with a full 12 volts every time the solenoid fires. I have connected this momentary 12 volt contact directly to my ignition coil by-passing the ballast resistor so as to get a full 12 volts to the ignition when cranking the starter. However this also means my engine ignition will go hot every time I use the remote starter button even with the ignition key in the off position. As I am aware of this I simply pull the coil wire when using the remote switch.

 

If I am attempting to start the engine while under the hood using the remote starter button I leave the ignition switch off and run a hot wire using alligator clips from the battery to the primary side of the coil. This way I can kill the ignition from under the hood as required without going back to  the dash board.

 

P6170001.jpg

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Ulu: You wrote "OK, so the tester light lights, which means some kind of a spark is being made. It might still be cap/rotor, but could be a damaged capacitor."

 

When you say Capacitor, do you mean Condenser?  If not, what capacitor are you referring to?

Edited by perrymedik
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Same thing. (Only us car guys call them condensers these days.)

 

Anyhow, they do  get damaged & go bad, and a bad one usually prevents the car from starting.

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ALL STOP.
 
Son of a (Am I allowed to curse when I get really frustrated?)!!!!
 
So, under advice, I set about addressing the problem of the stuck open Exhaust Valve in the #1 Cylinder because I was told that it was contributing to the car not starting because it eliminates any vacuum, and forces fuel backward through the intake manifold.  Either way it needed to be addressed.
 
Thanks to Plymouth Adams, I did another round turn on my Service Manual and Parts Manual and came to the realization that what several had told me earlier about removing the Valve Covers was not as difficult as I had thought.  As a matter of fact, it would have been much easier to do it when it was suggested because the Intake and Exhaust manifolds were not on.  
 
Regardless, off come the Manifolds and then the Timing covers.  What a horror show awaited me inside!!
 
IMG_3628.jpg
 
 
 
 
 
But wait there is more!!!  Not only was the Exhaust Valve stuck open but check out this spring action!!
 
 
 
 
Looks broken to me!  Ain’t that great folks!  I think its just wonderful! >:-/
 
But the good news is that I picked up an awesome little remote starter so I was able to take a look at what was going on under there while the motor was trying to crank.
 
Here is the Forward Valve Compartment with the stuck Exhaust Valve.
 
 
 
And then here is the Rear Valve Compartment, filthy but moving smoothly.
 
 
 
So now I guess it is time to read up on how to change out that valve spring.
 
But hell, since I’m going to have to take the top off, I might as well re-do all the valves an springs and whatever other little parts are involved. 
 
Can anyone recommend a good rebuild kit?
 
I’m open to thoughts and ideas.  Thinking about drinking myself to sleep tonight. LOL!
 
Thanks to all!
 
Cory
Edited by perrymedik
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It has been suggested (by Dodgeb4ya I believe) that you can get the clearance to get a new spring on there without pulling the head by adjusting the tappet all the way down.

 

 

You will need a valve spring compressor .

 

 

 

 

Edit:  Some penetrating oil, oil Kroil may loosen that lifter up.

Edited by shel_ny
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Yes you can replace a valve spring with the head on but why waste your time. Your engine is in need of a rebuild. Time to pull it and disassemble it. We can walk you through the rebuild process when you get to that point.

Don't want to go back to read all the posts. When was the need for a rebuild determined?

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I would really rather not do a complete rebuild.  If I can fix this problem then I'm happy.

 

I've pulled the head, and ordered a new spring.  I am going to clean out the Valve compartments so that I can actually see what's going on in there, plus it needs it - you saw the pictures.

 

Next I'll pull all the valves, clean them, hand lap them if needed, then put them all back together, verify that it works, reinstall the Cylinder head with new gaskets, and bolt everything else back up, then tackle the timing to make sure its right, bone up on my Carb knowledge and adjust mine accordingly, then give the key a turn and drive down the street.  Well, pump up the brakes first, then drive it down the street.

 

After I wake up from that pleasant dream . . . . . . .  :D

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Looks like the #1 exhaust valve was sitting open for years and the tappet and valve guide are now corroded & won't close.

 

Penetrating oil & judicious tapping might loosen it up.

 

I can't tell if the spring is broken, but if it's sat crushed like that for some years, you can bet it's weaker than the others from fatigue.

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