Towing Capacity of 49 Plymouth Special Deluxe

[pflaming]

lwebb: Why don't you go to U-haul, rent a trailer that is somewhat like what you want, weigh it, then throw in an old engine block or two to get the weight you will pull. Take that for a pull and let that trailer tell you what your car will do.

[Don Coatney]

I don't believe a Mopar overdrive transmission would be advisable when pulling a trailer as it freewheels when in overdrive with no engine braking. I think one would want all the braking assist available when descending a steep hill with the weight of a trailer pushing you. If you want an overdrive a T-5 would be a better choice in this application as it does not freewheel.  

[pflaming]

Don makes a valid point, yet descending one can always lock out the od. Also with a hand operated switch one can then lock out the OD on long hills as well.

PS: Don, what are you doing up at 4:40 a.m.? lol

[Don Coatney]

I don't believe a Mopar overdrive transmission would be advisable when pulling a trailer as it freewheels when in overdrive with no engine braking. I think one would want all the braking assist available when descending a steep hill with the weight of a trailer pushing you. If you want an overdrive a T-5 would be a better choice in this application as it does not freewheel.  

It was 6:40 AM when I made this posting

[Plymouthy Adams]

Young Ed, on 29 Aug 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:Young Ed, on 29 Aug 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:Young Ed, on 29 Aug 2014 - 11:12 PM, said:

Tim is that right for 49-50 when they still had woodie wagons along side the new steel ones? I know the steel wagons are a shorter wheelbase but I would suspect a 49 special deluxe to be the woodie wagon

 

Right Ed...the 'woody' is built on the larger 118.5 chassis and I read right over Special Deluxe..usually folks jut say woody wagons..my error..how many woody wagons do you suppose are out there in the big ole world pulling canned hams around on a routine basis?

 

 

bobjob55, on 30 Aug 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:bobjob55, on 30 Aug 2014 - 01:19 AM, said:

Just watch the movie starring Lucille ball called the big trailer , or something like that ..... just a little something to lighten the mood ....old brain kicking in .....

I just love the look of that trailer .....

and for this I would like to point out that in that time period all the cars were on a equal playing field...travel on roads not built for mass transit at higher speeds...that would not be anywhere near the case today...and don't forget the increased cases of road rage by less than tolerant drivers today..could be a recipe for disaster..

I tow quite often my big car trailer loaded with whatever vehicle suited my fancy this time around and most folks have no clue that the space you left between you and the guy in front of ya is for maneuvering and look at it as a jumping in space..my electric brakes have come in quite handy at these times..don't leave home without them..most folks have never pulled a rig and know the limitation and restricted maneuvering and have no consideration for those that do...attitudes have greatly changed in the last few decades along with the faster nimble cars that are doing these high speed lane jumps..

Edited August 30, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[Plymouthy Adams]

I have put a couple of receiver hitches on my old cars...and the process was different on each.  The earlier model with the U channel crosstie at the rear of the frame is a bit narrow for inserting the bar and I split this channel apart and welded in a section to allow the receiver to press fit inside this newly widened channel and then you start doing your drilling to bolt in place and add your frame stiffeners in place so to prevent rocking with the tongue weight and also to prevent any shifting as you start and stop with the newly attached load.  Last thing you need is rocking action here as it will break the cross bar right off the frame rivets..the cross channel actually hides the receiver from view and all mount points are to the frame runners themselves.  The 54 cross tie is a different set up, heavier made and was the easier unit to mount the receiver to..I went to the wrecking yard to measure the hitch I need and got unit that would be easy to adapt.

 

most of the shop that do hitches and such will not attempt anything like this..if it is not a factory bolt on kit you can often much forget about it happening as no shop today is going to fabricate a hitch and assume the liability that goes along with the install of it.  Again I must point out..is your insurance carrier aware of your intent....especially on collector polices..dot just assume you going to be covered..its not the same as with a newer car and daily driving policy

Edited August 30, 2014 by Plymouthy Adams

[DonaldSmith]

There was a 49 DeSoto woodie, pulling a woodie teardrop, at the DeSoto Convention this year.  The couple drove from San Diego to Indianapolis with the rig.  They had put in a new hitch, and left out the center part of the bumper.  (I wish I had taken a picture of the hitch.)

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

Don..that is a nice looking combo in that DeSoto/teardrop setup...the larger sisters of the era with the three piece bumpers makes this a win win..

 

on my 54 you cannot readily see the receiver part and on the 51 Plymouth wagon, you have to get down and look under in order to see it..

[Don Coatney]

I also saw that Desoto woody at the Desoto convention earlier this summer. Very nice looking car. I did not get a close up look at the hitch. However I walked up to this woody to read the sign in the window. First thing it said was Fluid Drive Transmission so I stopped reading.

[TodFitch]

I don't believe a Mopar overdrive transmission would be advisable when pulling a trailer as it freewheels when in overdrive with no engine braking. I think one would want all the braking assist available when descending a steep hill with the weight of a trailer pushing you. If you want an overdrive a T-5 would be a better choice in this application as it does not freewheel.  

+1

 

Pucker factor recollection: In the late 1970s when I moved back west from the east coast I purchased a small utility trailer for hauling all the extra parts for my Plymouth. A couple of transmissions were in the lot of parts as well. I never weighed the setup but I wouldn't be surprised if it was pushing 1000 pounds. The utility trailer had no brakes. All this being pulled by my '33 Plymouth with its massive 190 cu. in. engine and being stopped by narrow little 1 1/2 inch wide shoes.

 

First day out of Baltimore, for some reason now forgotten, I had the freewheeling enabled. Coming down out of the mountains into Wheeling, West Virginia, on a big sweeping downhill curve I came across a traffic light that turned red just as it came into view. Immediate brake fade on those tiny '33 Plymouth drums was followed by getting freewheeling locked out which in the '33 requires having the engine pulling the car so you had to accelerate, then a double clutch to 2nd for some engine braking and an application of the hand brake in addition to the regular brakes to get some sort of deceleration happening.

 

I just barely stopped at the limit line of the intersection and it took several minutes for my heart to stop pounding.

 

Here are a few photos of that rig.

[lwebb]

Wow OK guys thanks agina for all the info. Give me a few days to digest. I'm not even sure what some of the things you mention are? and I'm leaving town till Tuesday. Everyone have a great holiday. I'll post again when I get back.

 

Lanny

[lwebb]

OK, On the insurance issue, I haven't gone there yet. As of now It's a stock 49 driven less than 3000 a year.  I'll start down that road next week. I have to be out of town Thursday till the following Monday so not much will get done this week till next. I didn't know the hitch was going to be so problematic. I guess I'll tackle that next as well.

Neil, you say "Best case, you wouldn't want to do and I wouldn't like to see me do it.  The 318, torqueflite, four wheel discs, equalizer hitch and trailer brakes."

Trailer brakes are a given, already there.  If I can get a receiver installed the equalizer hitch shouldn't be a problem. Is there a kit like the one from Rustyhope for the rear as well?  Yeah I looked up the the Chrysler 318 with the  torqueflite transmission, what a bear.  Would that even be doable?  Beyond that what would you advise as a less best case scenario you would’t mind seeing me do? Is there such a set up or am I just in the wrong ball park? What’s your take on the 230, could it be beefed up any?


DJ you mentioned “Changing a stock type 218 to a 230 requires the 230 crankshaft and rods to be installed. If the rest of the parts are in Good condition they can be reused to save some $$$,  Are “the rest of the parts” you are talking about, parts from my current 218? It has less than 29,00 original miles so I assume they are?

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

12 CI is not in myopinion worth a single venture for the cost of changing the crank and rods in a 218...HOWEVER if you are going the way of a rebuild it would be worth looking at at that time..the V8 is not that hard to do..but again it is not a bolt in..and if you can fit the 318, you can fit the 440..they are so close to the same dimensions with the top end valve covers on the RB a bit wider is all..any engine change including a small V6 will require modifications of the inner fender and I do recommend that you do keep inner fenders....exhaust setup is your concern...along with rear cross member...the V8 is 180 that of the flattie..both being three point only that the position of the mounts are reversed..if you have never done this fabrication it may be a long process for you...you need the room, tools, skill at fabrication and welding and time to get it done...

[DJ194950]

When installing the crank and rods in my post, it requires the removal of the pistons, rods, timing chain and a few more. That means the engine Removed. Head off. Pan off. May as well get new main bearings as the new crank will most likely have been reground to diff. dimensions. Same for rod bearings but they are not Too expensive.

 

I was saying, maybe the pistons and rings can be reused on the 230 rods.(=no rebore of the block). The timing chain and gears may be reusable. Check the block for rust buildup, along with the valve cooling tube condition after water pump removal. Turn motor over and look at valve seats and valve seating surfaces and on and on. ALL can save some bucks, But can you do it? Experience?

A good straightedge on block and head. To check for flatness.

A motor rebuild business that's cooperative will show you whats up if experienced in these motors, most are, but not all!

 

Most usually recommend a total rebuild for them to offer any guarantee. Includes a block leveling shave, a head shave, replace all valve quides, and on and on including bore, new pistons and rings, reground crank, unless already done, new oil pump.

 

$2500 and up.

[Niel Hoback]

  I think that, now, were it mine, Disc brakes, radial tires, trailer brakes, and an equalizer hitch would do with a big IF.  IF you don't try to drive it like a newer car, meaning stay around 50 mph if it feels good there. No interstates ever. I think it would be possible under those circumstances to have a nice, fun rig. I have a 218 converted to a 230, and I would do it again in a minute. It may be psychological, but it feels strong and capable when I hurry it up.  

  Your 29k motor should serve well as long as you respect what you have.

[Don Coatney]

If your low mileage 218 engine is healthy (good compression, good oil pressure, no overheating, etc.) I would suggest you install disc brakes on the front and re-new the rear brakes adjusted to specifications. Install a good receiver hitch, insure the trailer brakes are up to snuff and make a few test trailer pulls. If you are comfortable with the setup drive it. If you are not comfortable then investigate the options.

 

It is possible to modify and increase horse power on the flathead 6 engine but it is still a flathead 6 and will not perform like a modern V configured engine.

[lwebb]

Well I've decided to start with th disk brakes but don't have a clue really as to what to get. I'm mechanicaly minded but haven't worked on a car sincee the mid 60s so I have little to no confidenvce in my ability. That being said, I spoke to a mechanic friend here and he said it shouldn't be a big deal if I bought the parts he would do the work. OK I looked a the Rustyhope kit. Can you answer a couple of questions. He says "NOTE: The standard kits will only fit spindles with a 1.250 or 1.375 OD where the inner bearing fits and a .750 OD where the outer bearing fits. Does my stock 49 Plymouth fit these specifications? For thoes of you who have done this, does the kit come with good instructions or is this something the mechanic should be able to figure out? Were there any surprises or unexpected things I should look for in the conversion?

Thanks

[jeffsunzeri]

Mr. Webb, don't do it. It's not safe.

For that trailer, your Tahoe is about the lightest-duty vehicle you should use to tow it.

I base this on the specifics of a modern 15 foot camp trailer.

I found the following specs for a 15 foot camper, current production, listed as an Ultra-light, which is likely to be lighter than the vintage trailer:

- Tongue weight: 331 pounds.

- Gross weight 3,551 pounds.

The issue is not so much the brake or engine capacity, but the overall package of the Plymouth. The suspension is inadequate in an as-new vehicle of this type, much less one with a few years on it. The chassis altogether on this as well as the drivetrain is not up to the task. Do yourself a favor and forget making this a tow vehicle for anything other than a tiny Teardrop which has a weight of around 1200 pounds and a tongue weight of no more than 175 pounds.

[55 Fargo]

This is going to be "interesting". I do not see th frame, or the front suspension( if in premium condition), as the limiting factor in this scenario.

I do see the braking system on the tow vehicle, and the low HP engine as the issue.

Of course the 49 will be noisier, not as creature comfortable, as the "modern" Tahoe. But front end and frame being the limiting factor, not sure about that....

[james49ply]

my 218 will pull hard in high gear at 20mph, I rarely downshift except when stopped. I believe the high gearing (390:1) gives the car phenomenal pulling power. put a good frame mounted hitch and set up the trailer brakes and try it.

as to the brakes? I have a 65 Mustang that weighs far less than the Plymouth, and the Plymouth stops with far less pedal effort than the Mustang. I think you will be surprised as to the power the 218 has.

My nickels worth.

[lwebb]

Well I'm entering into this cautiously. I'm also talking with folks on vintage trailer blogs who use vintage cars and trucks as tow vehicles. But no one has a sweet 49 like mine, mostly fords, chev, buicks etc.

My trailer is a 1954 Wally Byam Holiday, made as a prototype by Airstream for only one year, very rare. Don’t know the exact weight but I’ve been told it’s under 2,000. I need to get a reading on tongue weight.

You can set the trailer brakes to grab before the Tahoe brakes. I have to be careful not to set them to high. So the Tahoe isn't really trying to stop the trailer, the trailer actually tries to slow down the Tahoe.

As you say, the hitch will need to reinforce the frame, not just attach to the frame. It will need to be specially made of course and run well up toward the front. After I get the disk brakes I’ll be back for advice on the hitch.

So far my commitment is front disk brakes. I see there are a couple places to order the conversion kits. Any advice on which kit works the best.
Any advice on what all I should expect or tell the mechanic up front to expect when doing this. Do the kits come with decent instructions for the untalented or will I need to go back and forth the the internet to figure them out?
Again thanks for all the advice. I know there will never be a consensus on what I should do but hearing both sides, change nothing to put in a big HEMI really helps.
Lanny

[Barabbas]

I have the ECI brakes on my '52; they work fine but if I had it to do over I'd go the RustyHope or Scarebird way. My only complaint with the ECI brakes is that they do not clear the standard rims on my P23, so the conversion costs about $300 more just to buy a new set of matched rims

[Plymouthy Adams]

If you expect to farm this front brake conversion out to a shop or trusted individual..I would think a word to the wise would be to ask him/they up front their trusted recommendations as it is they who has to do the work and STAND BEHIND and accept the liability of the installation....you should be sure to ask this question up front...literally you putting your life/family on the line not to mention other people sharing the road.. just a grain of salt freely given to season the food for thought..

[martybose]

I have the ECI brakes on my '52; they work fine but if I had it to do over I'd go the RustyHope or Scarebird way. My only complaint with the ECI brakes is that they do not clear the standard rims on my P23, so the conversion costs about $300 more just to buy a new set of matched rims

I believe that the reason that the ECI kit has this problem more than the RustyHope/Scarebird conversions is that the ECI kit uses a larger caliper than the others.

 

Marty

[Don Coatney]

I agree with the advice given by Plymouthy. Let the installer do the research and select what he or she is comfortable with.