Bondo or ?

[Bobacuda]

I am currently studying up for the next big phase on my dismantled truck, to occur as soon as I am finished removing the paint.  I will put epoxy paint on it and then move on to imperfections. 

 

The trouble is that the more I read online about body fillers, the more confused I get (I tend to get too analytical - it's the scientist in me).  The complexity appears to depend on the product.  I understand the part about getting the body as straight as possible before I start, use thin layers, sand level and feather edges, then add more thin layers of filler if absolutely necessary (I have yet to figure out if putty glaze is necessary). 

 

In addition, the "most tried and true products to use" part is where I get derailed.  Since I am a total novice at this, I thought best to ask for opinions.

 

     1.  What products do you recommend for a total novice?

     2.  What products do you use?

     3.  Do you use "putty glaze" over your work?

     4.  Did you use sanding blocks or air tools (and what type)?

     5.  How long has it held up with out cracking, shrinking or turning loose?  From what I have read, if everything is done  

          right, this is not an issue.

 

I have searched online (watched lots of video - some with conflicting info), this website, and the HAMB, but I think hearing from Dodge truck people that have actually used it on their vehicles would set my mind more at ease.

 

Thanks for putting up with a more than likely routine question.

[NiftyFifty]

I'm absolutely no pro, or even a hack...but #1 don't buy the regular over the counter Bondo brand filler, its garbage IMO. Go to a body and paint supply store and buy what the shops do, one key thing to know you got better stuff, its not pink..typically green or blue in colour. I'm using a gold version now that is for larger fills and its working great, I never knew how easy it can be when your filler gets rock hard and doesn't shrink or get bubbles in it. As for the glazing putty, I'm a little lost on it too, other then its for deep scratches and very minor imperfection, or as the last layer over the filler, but I'm finding I don't need that with good filler...again...don't buy the cheap red stuff, it bleeds through the primer and paint in my past experience.

Everything in body work is about time and patience, and you don't need super expensive tools, a hammer and dolly set from harbour freight or alike is just fine. Again...lots of more experienced guys here, but those tips I can give with assurance

[HanksB3B]

all the resource you need to know..

 

http://www.tcpglobal.com/

 

now do your homework,

 

and good luck !

 

Hank 

[48Dodger]

Get your steel straight as you can.....Epoxy primers, Poly primers and Urethane primers are getting to be the annoying "all in one" primers.

 

When thinking about primers, remember that they are part of your body filler work.

Epoxy is high in resins to stick and fill better than other primer types. Its designed for bare metal.

The same Epoxy primer is also the sealer you use before putting down the color.

I like to use Epoxy for brackets, inner fenders , and sealer over the body filler.

Because of the resins, it helps seal off rust (moisture). In most cases its not easy to sand, or better put, not easy to shape. 

 

Poly primers can be almost identical to Epoxy primers as far as end results. It keeps moisture out and isn't the best for shaping.

Its made to be used on heavy body work areas because of its its high build charcteristics and strength. I wouldn't spray it on straight panels.

It tends to go on with a bit of a texture and can add uneeded time to the sanding process. If its a cheap paint job....say a work truck...use only a  

Poly primer and save some money. You can do the same with Epoxy, but Polys are better fillers and sanders. 

 

Urethane primers are softer and shape very well. On a straight panel, I would sand it down, shoot Epoxy primer, then shoot a high build Urethane for finally shaping (block sanding). I spray the whole vehicle with Urethane then block sand.  When the sanding is all done...its ready for paint. 

 

Ok...those are basic ideas about primers.....

 

Body fillers. Rough the dent up with 36/40 grit and make sure the metal is clean. I use wax and grease to clean the metal after I've banged it out 

roughed it up. Good regular body fillers are designed to go right on to metal. Most body fillers are designed that way now. I like to guide coat 

my filler even before I put primer on. Regular body filler is not easy to shape and will shrink back when drying....so don't get frustrated. when you get it close, switch to a 2k glaze putty. Glaze is designed to go on top of reg fillers and primers with minimal shrinkage. So shape the glaze, then primer. If its a large area, I would use a Poly Primer, if a smaller area, maybe just the Epoxy...it depends on the damaged that was repaired. Now...if the damage was welded or involved holes...my first layer is a fiberglass filler...mixes just like regular body fillers, but is waterproof and strong. Meaning it can go on thicker without delaminating. It also keeps water from creeping in and under the bodyfiller, say, through the back side of a fender. But once you have the body work areas done, the whole car is shot with Epoxy.....high build the whole thing with Urethane for the final block sanding. Block sanding should be done by hand. Machine sanding will dig on the edge and give you waves. Not good. Block sanding can be done wet or in some cases dry. If you go the cheap route....Poly primers are best Blocked out dry. If you wet sand Poly, you will need to let it dry several days before you can lay down paint. Glaze can be be used during this discovery time and then re-shoot with primer.

 

Now.....with all that hard work with your latex'd cover hands (no bare hands please) you will still have to wax and grease the whole vehicle, tack rag it, and shoot a sealer before paint. The sealer is an Epoxy primer like I said, the idea is to shoot a wet coat on and the after the flash time, shoot the color. This is called "wet on wet" or a "Chemical Bond". Say you shoot a primer, and wait, umm..over 2 days, you would have to sand it before shooting another coat. That would be called a "Mechanical Bond". In the case of the sealer, you should want a Chemical Bond. The sealer will catch those tiny straches, cover burn throughs, and gives some strength to the base coat, since color goes on so thin (even thou you shoot maybe 3 coats, its thin)  . Then of course the clear. I always hand sand clear.....rough spots I start 800, 1200, 1500, 2000, compound (rag), polish (foam),...smoother areas I begin with 1500 then upward.

 

These is just to give you a better idea of what's used. The thing that ticks me off now days is the buzz words for primer..."high build" "easy to sand"....

You're gonna sell more primer that way, but it just confuses a guy who doesn't use this stuff often. The old days of using an etching primer are basically done. The etching primer has acid in it to self bond itself to hard to sand areas. This is where Epoxy and its high resins come in...its sticky and will bond with those areas. The acid in Etching primers will cause problems with some products and usally is limited becuase of that. PCL Poly Primers shouldn't be sprayed over etching primers while Evercoat's G2 Featherfill Poly Primer can. So if you need to go old school with the etching primer....read the other product labels for problems. 

 

Think of my response as an endorsement to do more book reading, more label reading, and getting a mentor to physically be there to reduce; heartache, road rage, dog kicking, public outbursts of swearing, vehicle burning, crying, bitchin and moaning. 

 

I like 3M, Evercoat, PCL, and PPG

 

48D

[Dave72dt]

Adding to Tim's response, I would recommend applying a urethane or 2k primer over any of the spray fillers after you have it shaped and blocked out and use that for the final blocking passes.  The spray fillers are soft and have a lot of talc in them which makes them somewhat moisture absorbent

 

I use both machine and hand sanding, machine for roughing it in and hand blocking for final leveling and feathering along with guide coats.  Use the short strand fiberglass on edges if you can't weld them and grind/file smooth instead of regular filler.  It's less prone to chipping later.

 

I use 3M, Evercoat, Dupont, Nason.  There's different levels of each of those products and I may not use the top end products of each line, I don't scrimp on it either.  My filler choice is Evercoat's  Rage Gold.

 

I primarily shoot base/ clear.  I've heard that single stage urethane sands and buffs easier than base clear and am going to try that when I shoot my next solid color, still use base/clear when doing metallic.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Dave72dt

[John-T-53]

Tim and Dave, great points. Thanks Tim for the great overview of paints, especially on the subject of primers.

 

I second the suggestion of using Evercoat's Rage line. Never tried the gold yet, just the light blue. It sands very, very nicely. I think I used about 5 gallons of it on my "other" vehicle while doing its body work 15 years ago. And the paint still looks great on top of it.

 

Another reason for buying your fillers in an autobody paint store is freshness. If you buy Bondo at the hardware store, not only is the product itself inferior, but it's probably old.

 

Is Nitrostan considered a "good" glazing putty?

[Brent B3B]

Bobacuda, thanks for this question. i went into my local "auto paint" store and the guy told me body fillers are pretty much the same and i could save money by buying it at an auto parts store.

i thought i had it figured out until i read this thread.   

[NiftyFifty]

Evercoat is the stuff I'm using, as soon as I read that name it kicked it. Have to be careful with that you plan to use for paint, some of these primers are no good for acrylic enamel or straight enamel. I wanted a 2K filler primer in a an for doing quick coats as I do body work, but the stuff of the shelf wouldn't work with my planned paint choice. When you get the paint selection, I would probably advise against the Omni line by ppg, I used it on my Monaco and although I F'ed up the ain't with not enough air pressure, I still didn't like the way it took so many coats to cover, and its really not that cheap. I might try Eastwood on my truck this go round, honestly the armour coat $9 a pint that's on my 50 looks just about as good as my $600 omni

[48Dodger]

To save money on a big spread (say the side of a panel truck) you can mix Bondo with a really good filler like Rage. Bondo is thin, which gives it more shrink back than most, but worse of all, air bubbles (big and small).....the mix will stretch your budget and work your arms a lil more. On other jobs, some guys will mix the glaze and the filler to speed up the process, especially on a non show vehicle, ie work trucks. 

 

I like to load up the panel with the heavy filler and use a cheese grader before that stuff gets really hard. Saves on sandpaper and the back. Then I use a 40 grit on a hand board followed with a 80 grit on the hand held Random Orbital sander, then followed with the 80 grit board (this is when I guide coat) fill the low spots and deep straches with glaze, sanding with 80/120/180 before primer.

 

IMO, my 2 cents, what I do, nothing is in stone......... 

 

48D  

[48Dodger]

I'll use Omni for completes and solid colors. Colors should be opaque but Omnis are not. I use a dak primer mix to help out with darker colors. I won't use it for color matching and spot work. And I definately will not use the clear. Shopline is by PPG and better imo. Omni colors have no catalyst, so if you respray color on color before say 4 days has passed, the reintroduction of solvent will cause it to pull up. I'll spray a thinned out clear to act like an intermediate if i don't clear right away. Shopline has a choice of using a catalyst or not. Why would you not clear right away? Airbrushing, graphics, etc. PPG also has Deltron which is the DB series which are a step up in material and a little more money. I prefer DBC over DBU (both are base coats)......DBI is the underhood (single stage paint).  

 

48D

[Dave72dt]

Evercoat is the stuff I'm using, as soon as I read that name it kicked it. Have to be careful with that you plan to use for paint, some of these primers are no good for acrylic enamel or straight enamel. I wanted a 2K filler primer in a an for doing quick coats as I do body work, but the stuff of the shelf wouldn't work with my planned paint choice. When you get the paint selection, I would probably advise against the Omni line by ppg, I used it on my Monaco and although I F'ed up the ain't with not enough air pressure, I still didn't like the way it took so many coats to cover, and its really not that cheap. I might try Eastwood on my truck this go round, honestly the armour coat $9 a pint that's on my 50 looks just about as good as my $600 omni

Very correct to consider chemical compatibility of the products. I have always recommended using a local jobber for product if I can. You start with the brand and line of paint ( you can't get all colors mixed in every line of paint the jobber may offer), type of paint (base/clear, single stage urethane, acrylic enamel), get the product sheets for it and follow the directions. It'll tell you what it needs for the substrate as well as what you can't use, and how the underlying surface needs to be prepped and how to apply the product, get the product sheets for the substrate and it'll tell you what it needs and how to apply it properly and what it's surface needs. Basically you need to work backwards with product information to the foundation surface.

Point being, you want all the components happy with being in each other's company.

I've never sprayed PPG that I know of. I've heard rumors that TCP Global's Custom and Restoration Shop lines were relabeled PPG but I don't know that for a fact. I've used that once and not entirely happy with it but it may have just been old product (not their fault)that had been in customer's possession for several years (not me). I started with Dupont Centari, then went to Martin Seynour when our NAPA store put in a paint system and now back to Dupont at a store I work at. Local jobbers. I've used TCP for House of Kolor specialty paint. I can assure you the products are not 100 percent compatible. Unpleasant results can happen and you get to start all over.

[NiftyFifty]

I'm learning more and more that filler isn't your friend, use as little as possible, its harder to figure out where it was needed and wasn't when you go heavy, and you can feather edges, but if your too high in the middle it stick out like a sore thumb. I circle my dents now and once I pound them semi straight I can still see the spots and just use enough to smooth out the ripples. Filling anything deeper then 1/4" and your going to have a mess most likely in a few years. I had to grind out all of the red Bondo filler that the last guy used in my passenger front fender, but I can't get it all without cutting metal and that means more fab work that I can't do myself and I can see where it was already cracking and creating more rust,

[NiftyFifty]

Very correct to consider chemical compatibility of the products. I have always recommended using a local jobber for product if I can. You start with the brand and line of paint ( you can't get all colors mixed in every line of paint the jobber may offer), type of paint (base/clear, single stage urethane, acrylic enamel), get the product sheets for it and follow the directions. It'll tell you what it needs for the substrate as well as what you can't use, and how the underlying surface needs to be prepped and how to apply the product, get the product sheets for the substrate and it'll tell you what it needs and how to apply it properly and what it's surface needs. Basically you need to work backwards with product information to the foundation surface.Point being, you want all the components happy with being in each other's company.I've never sprayed PPG that I know of. I've heard rumors that TCP Global's Custom and Restoration Shop lines were relabeled PPG but I don't know that for a fact. I've used that once and not entirely happy with it but it may have just been old product (not their fault)that had been in customer's possession for several years (not me). I started with Dupont Centari, then went to Martin Seynour when our NAPA store put in a paint system and now back to Dupont at a store I work at. Local jobbers. I've used TCP for House of Kolor specialty paint. I can assure you the products are not 100 percent compatible. Unpleasant results can happen and you get to start all over.

Tell me about it.... Sprayed some fill primer over some new tremclade.....worked better then paint stripper....worst part...was the metal dash of my car and it couldn't be taken out to sand so I had to do it all by hand in the car. ZERO FUN

[55 Fargo]

Tell me about it.... Sprayed some fill primer over some new tremclad.....worked better then paint stripper....worst part...was the metal dash of my car and it couldn't be taken out to sand so I had to do it all by hand in the car. ZERO FUN

I have sprayed urethane primer, lacquer based primer, you name it, to rusto synthetic (alkyd) based primers, with no issues whatsoever, with compatibility, adhesion issues etc.

The alkyd based rusto primers, I have used successfully on bare prepped steel, fillers go over this too, once fully cured has no issues with a 2 k product at all. using some rattle can $hit may be another story. I have shot epoxy primer right over well cured Tremclad/Rustoleum paint with a hardener, with no issues either, as well as some lacquer based stuff.

The industry years back needed to speed up production, as well today environmental laws dictate VOC limits etc. In other words no production shop has time to wait for old school synthetic enamel primers to cure.

[Dave72dt]

I'm learning more and more that filler isn't your friend, use as little as possible, its harder to figure out where it was needed and wasn't when you go heavy, and you can feather edges, but if your too high in the middle it stick out like a sore thumb. I circle my dents now and once I pound them semi straight I can still see the spots and just use enough to smooth out the ripples. Filling anything deeper then 1/4" and your going to have a mess most likely in a few years. I had to grind out all of the red Bondo filler that the last guy used in my passenger front fender, but I can't get it all without cutting metal and that means more fab work that I can't do myself and I can see where it was already cracking and creating more rust,

A flexible metal rule, paint sticks, etc., anything fairly stiff that you can flex to match the contour of the panel can be used to show the highs and lows AND be used for applying filler. Lean them over with a light behind them and you can see where you need to spend a little more time with hammer and dolly. I've got a 3' steel rule and a cheap thin carpenter's square I routinely use on large low crowned or flat panels.  Getting fussier, can use a flat file to scuff the surface.  The marks will indicate highs or level, no scuffs, the lows.   Low spots are often larger than first perceived and over sanding often occurs removing the soft filler middle while trying to feather them out at the edges .  Try doing a cross hatch pattern with a file across a suspected low.  Bright metal should show up at the outside edges.  As far as filler usage, very little, far less than when I first started.  As my metalwork gets better, I need less filler and doing a better job of applying it means less work and less waste. Using a paddle to apply filler over a large surface and getting it level is tough. The steel rule works the same way as striking off concrete removing much of the excess and indicating where there isn't enough.  Lean it over  and flex it to match the panel contour, pulling it over filler.  You can then move the excess to the low spots with a paddle, restrike it with the rule and end up with less sanding because you're closer to where you need to be and have wasted less material 

[48Dodger]

I'm just curious Bobacuda....did any of this help?

 

You didn't respond or ask anymore questions.

 

Did it make things worse?

 

48D

[Bobacuda]

48 Dodger -

Sorry I did not respond.  Yes, the responses have helped.  From what I have learned from everyone here (and online...).

 

I am developing a plan of attack.  When the time comes (soon, I hope), I will scrub and powerwash the fender with the dent down to remove any excess JASCO, then I will dry it and wipe it down with denatured alcohol to make sure it is dry.  At that time, I will scuff the area that needs work (plus some overlap area for feathering).  I plan on using Evercoat Gold for filler.  When I have the fender to the point I think I can live with it, I will then wipe it all down with the paint's recommended grease and wax remover, then put epoxy primer on it.  Same process for the rest of the truck, then I will get all of the primered stuff lined up for urethane single coat paint. 

 

I am totally new to body work, so this has me nervous (my son is convinced it will look less than desirable if I do it ).  I keep telling him that if I mess it up, THEN I will pay someone to repaint it...or I will drive it through a bunch of brush, scratch the hell out of it and keep reminding everyone it is an old farm truck.

 

Anyhow, does this painting plan sound reasonable to you?

Thanks

[48Dodger]

Couple thoughts:

 

Maybe make this your build thread.

Post all your truck build questions in this one thread.

Multiple threads makes it difficult for guys to remember what you did last, or what they shared.

Ask the moderator/admin to combine your last two threads, because they are very much related.

 

My feelings about the plan?  "Knowledge is when read how to do something, Skill is when put that knowledge to use, over and over and over......."

 

I think you might need a mentor, because painting a vehicle involves multiple skills and tools that most do not have on hand for everyday use. I would never tell you not to paint your car, but you might want to spend some time at a paint shop to see if you can learn what you see being done there. Its not easy of course, but totally a worth while journey.

 

48D

Edited July 24, 2014 by 48dodger

[jeffsunzeri]

Boba - Being nervous about this process is a good thing. One thing I found that has helped tremendously is a DVD demonstrating body filler and general painting preparation techniques. I believe I got one from Eastwood a million years ago (it was on VHS) but there are a couple out there, and they are better than what you will find on YouTube. Play the tape/DVD over and over, and you will be as prepared as ever! Watching some pros helps a lot!

Bond-o was used by the factories back in the day, and it is a time proven process. Go for it!

[Frank Elder]

Shouldn't this be pinned here, or in the tech archives?

Edited July 27, 2014 by Frank Elder