Bmartin Posted November 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2013 Well, today was a setback. I took the drums off and removed the major adjusting bolts to slot them. You are going to need a pretty deep slot in the bolt since the adjuster binds up and its max adjustment point. I had a heck of a time getting the adjuster bolts back in and lined up. A large clamp to compress the shoes would have helped I think. I ended up using a rubber mallet to tap the shoes downward and elbow grease to get the shoe compressed. I was setting the shoes at the their full loose settings and about to put the drum on to start the process. Then the wheel cylinder started a steady leak from the front side. The adjustment could have found a leaky spot or my maneuvering could have been too rough. Or this could just be what you run across in an older car. I don't know whats original and whats been repaired/replaced. My lack of familiarity with these style brakes is limitting me. Can someone give me a explanation of the best way to get the adjuster bolts lined up? At least I'll know for the future. Next step is to calculate costs. I'll need shoes, cylinders, and possibly drums. Along that same line, I don't have the proper measurement tools for the inside diameter of the drum. So I will be taking them to a parts store to measure. What are the measurements I need to know to determine whether they need to be replaced or not? Does not seem to be in the service manual. I'll be considering the cost of the disc upgrade since that is what I am familiar with. Thanks again for all the help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Just checking brake part prices on one site- Andy Berbaum (oldmoparts.com), New wheel cyls. $65 x4 New MC $185 x1 New shoes $65 per axle X2 New rubber hoses $19 x 3 $632 plus shipping Thats all new, if your MC and wheel cyls can be rebuilt by you you can probably save over $300 off that price. If your brake drums are 10" stock, most people will say +.060 oversize after a turning. Any brake shop can check for you. The adjustment tool is the biggest help to get them adjusted, but others have made their own versions, a search on same will get some ideas. There used to be someone on this forum that would rent you one with a deposit. There also used to be a tech article on brake adjustments, start positions on adjusters, tec, but I could not locate it tonight. I'm sure someone on the forum can still show you where to find it! Most suggest on a total brake update to do new steel lines at the same time, up to you and your abilities or wallet! Good luck and enjoy the new car! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmartin Posted December 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 My master is new, but that does not mean its good. I've been bitten by that before. For now, I'll assume its good and check out other things. Disc conversion seems to run between $500 and $700 without knowing any of the hidden gotchas. I'm looking into some less expensive options to Andy for OG parts. If I stick with the drums, then I'll be renting the tool from Rich and doing it all according to the manual. What do you mean by +.06" oversize? I guess I thought I would need a maximum inner diameter measurement to know if they needed to be replaced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Sorry a mistype. Meant to say plus 60 thousants= + 0.0060. So 10.0 =Stock inside dia measurement , a max of 60 th. oversize = 10.0060 at measured accross the inside dia. of the drum after turning to clean up the surface. A proper inside micrometer in required to measure this. A brake shop can measure yours and make a determination before turning if they can be done within the limit. You find your drums measure for example + 20 thous.,+ 30 on another, third may be +40 for example. Not a problem. Especially if a local shop can grind the arch of the shoes to match the drums (best way to go if you can find a shop to do this), adjust shoes to fit drums per instructions with tools. Just need to keep shoes matched to the drums together. Was not suggesting Berbaums. Just one place to get a price on the parts and easy to look. Shopping is yours to do , I always look around. Best, Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 (edited) My master is new, but that does not mean its good. I've been bitten by that before. For now, I'll assume its good and check out other things. Disc conversion seems to run between $500 and $700 without knowing any of the hidden gotchas. I'm looking into some less expensive options to Andy for OG parts. If I stick with the drums, then I'll be renting the tool from Rich and doing it all according to the manual. What do you mean by +.06" oversize? I guess I thought I would need a maximum inner diameter measurement to know if they needed to be replaced. Sounds like a good plan. Even with a very close adjustment, these shoes seem to fit and perform well after some miles and wear. Years back as you may very well know, they would arc the brake shoes using a special brake shoe grinding tool, instant great fit. To be honest I did not use the Ammco or Miller tools, but followed advice from Dodgeb4ya, and set the brakes arrows on major adjusters pointing as per shop manual, drove for x amount of miles, adjusted minor adjusters periodically, and brakes were great. I sold this vehicle to a vintage Mopar collector last spring, he told me they are the best brakes he has ever had in a vintage Mopar. You could put your passenger into the windshield on a hard stop. Dodgeb4ya Bob, is probably the most knowledgeable and experienced Guy on this forum with these lockheed brake systems, He could adjust them in his sleep no doubt....good luck ps spec on the brake drum is 10.060, 60 thousandths over, drums can be machined oversize to .030, thus giving .060 max oversize. Edited December 1, 2013 by Fargos-Go-Far 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fstfish66 Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I will send you a PM, on disc brake stuff,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyHarold Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Another source for brake parts is Rock Auto (rockauto.com). They are usually fairly low priced and have a 5% discount code you can find online for more savings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmartin Posted December 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Rock Auto does not have much for a 1940 unfortunately. But thanks for looking out. Another question has popped into my mind. I was reading other posts about residual valves, how they are incorporated into the master cylinder in older cars to keep pressure on the cups in the wheel cylinder. When I was wrangling to get my adjuster bolts lined up, I relieved the pressure in the line in hopes of compressing the cylinders in a little. Could this relief of pressure be the cause of the wheel cylinder leaking? If I pressurize the line again it may seat? It would be nice to trouble shoot the pedal before replacement. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I used a residual valve and though it would work but it worked to good. It wouldn't release the pressure at the wheel cyclinder. Everyone here knows I had big time problems with my brakes also but in the end it was more a air problem and adjusting the major setting on the brakes. Attached are to things I made up to help me along on my problem. The first one is a device I made up to make sure I had enough hyd oil in the M/C unit. I used a rubber plug, a lamp shade continuous threaded stud,two nuts and two washers. I just place a clear poly hose on one end and attached that to a tin funnel and the other I just tighten up in the hole of the master cyclinder fill hole. Worked great as I never ran out of oil as I could see how much I had in the clear poly hose while pumping the brakes. Easy to build and worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 Now here is the seconcd thing I made up and it worked great also! This I used the major brake adjustment to get the brake shoes centered to the drum. Simple and works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIPJOBXX Posted December 1, 2013 Report Share Posted December 1, 2013 I change the design of my gage after I made up the one above. This photo is of field sketch I made up so that I could get the plastic T to fit up tight against the end of the axle. Using this plasic pipe set up this way with the sweapping motions worked great. All I did was place my litte rig on the axle and tighten down the hub nut and that took what ever play was on the shaft and the t fitting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmartin Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I am making the major brake adjustment with the AMCO tool (thx Rich). The issue I am having is that the shoe is hitting the gauge in the middle of the shoe. So that I can't go back and forth from top to bottom to make the adjustment. Either I am doing something wrong or the shoes are not perfectly round. Shoes are most likely the culprit since they are new replacements, most likely from China. So what is the best way to deal with this? Do I lean towards getting the top of the shoe in adjustment or more towards the bottom? Or just stick with getting the middle close? All help is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Find someone with a shoe grinder who can arch your shoes. There is a recent thread about such a tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 The ammco 1750 tool is worthless to use correctly unless each wheel set of shoes are arced to match the diameter of each drum. Get the shoes arced for each drum size whether std drum or oversized drum and the tool will work as per the instructions Rich sent with the tool. Bob 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desoto1939 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Brian< you did not need to remove the eccentric bottom pins. If you noticed each pin has two flat spots on them. if I remember correctly I think a 1/2 inch box end fits perfectly on the end. Since you have the arrows then you are set. Loosen the castle nut on the back of the baker plate. You can then turn the eccentric via the box wrench to get the proper adjustment. Always start with the arrows pointing towards each other. Only do one side at a time to doing the arching of the shoe. If you can not find someone to arc the shoes then go with the high spot and get the drums on the car. Do this will all four wheels. Then carefully drive the car around the block and hit the brakes to get the drum to mark where the lining is hitting. You could then use the file or sand paper to start to remove some of the excess brake lining. Take you time with the Ammco brake gage that i sent you. You might have to do this job a couple of times to get them set the way you like it. I am on vaction starting the 8th so I do not need the took back in any specific time frame. Rich Hartung Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Then carefully drive the car around the block and hit the brakes to get the drum to mark where the lining is hitting. Rich Hartung Good idea. Also use a sharpie to make hash marks across the lining. Where the hash marks disappear is the high spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soth122003 Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 I jusrt finished the brakes on my 48 P-15 Special. My pedal was doing the same thing even after adjusting the shoes and bleeding the system, rebuilding the MC and one of the wheel cylinders.. Turns out it was the relief port on the MC. It was clogged up which would not allow the piston in the MC to return to its starting position. The brake spring was bringing the pedal bak to normal and the piston would slowly come back. So when I applied the brakes, the pedal had about 2" of play followed by low pressure to about 1" from the floor and then hard pressure. I used a bread twist tie to clear the relief port. Once that was done the brakes work like a champ. Remember, a bullet may have your name on it, but a grenade is addressed "To whom it may concern". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Another good suggestion. That would be the port that has the prick punch in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmartin Posted March 2, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Well, that is disappointing. I'll look for someone that can grind the shoes this week. Thanks again for the help. The factory manual is not very detailed on this aspect, with only a mention of ensuring that the shoes are concentric. On a side note, I thought working on a classic car would involve a lot of extra work, but involve only basic tools. It seems that classic cars have more 'special' tools than anything in the modern era. I guess that makes sense, the designs improved to not need the special tools and make repair easier. Its frustrating to try and DIY this stuff sometimes. I need to work on the weekend and wrench on the weekdays when more resources are available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 Well, that is disappointing. I'll look for someone that can grind the shoes this week. . . . Did you follow Don's suggestion and search for the recent shoe arcing thread? I got around the issue fairly well (probably not as good as using an arcing machine) by getting a roll of sticky back sandpaper. Cut a length long enough to fit all the way around the inside of the brake drum, stick it on, mark the shoe with a sharpie so you can see what contact you have, then sand it to fit by rubbing it back and forth inside the drum. Only takes a minute or so for each shoe. Since each drum may be slightly different diameter, you should match the shoes to the drum. If I recall correctly, the cost of the roll of sticky back sand paper was less than $5 at the local hardware store. If you have a choice, get the thinnest sand paper available. I took my calipers along to measure thickness. If/when I get access to an official brake shoe grinding machine, I'll use that in the future. In the meantime the sand paper got me close enough to use my Ammco measuring tool. By the way, I found that setting the Ammco to the exact diameter of the drum and then using feeler gauges (one each for the toe and for the heel) was easier for me than trying to adjust the Ammco to the heel and then for the toe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 On a side note, I thought working on a classic car would involve a lot of extra work, but involve only basic tools. It seems that classic cars have more 'special' tools than anything in the modern era. . . . Hmmm. I got by for decades with my only special tool being a brake drum puller. It is possible to adjust the brakes without a special tool. It is possible to arc the shoes without special tools. It is possible to set the ignition with nothing more than a feeler gauge and a test light, etc. I ended up getting more special tools for my newer cars (80s and 90s), things like an adjustable advance timing light, oil filter wrench, etc. than I ever got for my old car. And I have thrown in the towel for the new ('01 and '04) cars. To start there I'd need to get an ODB read out tool and a bunch of other stuff. Yes, the factory manual has a number of special tools that make the job easier and faster. And I have acquired some of those over the years. But you can do one heck of a lot with nothing more than standard hand tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted March 2, 2014 Report Share Posted March 2, 2014 But you can do one heck of a lot with nothing more than standard hand tools. I think there are a lot of folks that do not have a good set of standard hand tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Back in the late 60's I did my first brake job on my 1951 plymouth cranbrook. I too was frustrated-I had a low soft pedal after installing new wheel cylinders and shoes-no drum turns were even though of back then!. Out of total frustration I went to a old brake shop run by a hard ass old mechanic. I told him my problem of poor low soft brakes and that I had tried a major adjustment. He kinda looked PO'd at me and told me to set all the Gawd *&&%&^* anchor arrows back to the factory postion. Then to keep adjusting the shoe cams every two to five hundred miles and the pedal would become high, firm and the brakes would work like new. Soon enough that did happen. After a brake job on todays newer cars the brakes usually work perfect after a quick bedding in of the pads and shoes compared to the old MoPar Lockheed brakes which can be pain in the you know what! If you have patience and can keep adjusting them up with the cams the pedal will get higher and firmer like new as long as all is new and the shoe arc is close to the drum size. The other way is to have all the expensive factory service tools and good brake service knowledge to do them fast and easy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted March 3, 2014 Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Back in the late 60's I did my first brake job on my 1951 plymouth cranbrook. I too was frustrated-I had a low soft pedal after installing new wheel cylinders and shoes-no drum turns were even though of back then!. Out of total frustration I went to a old brake shop run by a hard ass old mechanic. I told him my problem of poor low soft brakes and that I had tried a major adjustment. He kinda looked PO'd at me and told me to set all the Gawd *&&%&^* anchor arrows back to the factory postion. Then to keep adjusting the shoe cams every two to five hundred miles and the pedal would become high, firm and the brakes would work like new. Soon enough that did happen. After a brake job on todays newer cars the brakes usually work perfect after a quick bedding in of the pads and shoes compared to the old MoPar Lockheed brakes which can be pain in the you know what! If you have patience and can keep adjusting them up with the cams the pedal will get higher and firmer like new as long as all is new and the shoe arc is close to the drum size. The other way is to have all the expensive factory service tools and good brake service knowledge to do them fast and easy. This has been the best advice , I followed with great success, as Bob mentioned, without the knowledge and specialized tools, time, wear and further adjustment=good brakes.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bmartin Posted March 3, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2014 Well, that makes me feel a little better. Since this is my first classic, I have been trying to follow the manual as close as possible. I'll keep this in mind in the future. For now, I have found someone to arc the brake shoes and will be dropping them off tomorrow. I think I missed the other thread because I searched for 'arch' instead of 'arc'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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