1939 Ply P8 New Project

[Robert Horne]

http://p15-d24.com/topic/17737-5-speed-not-t5/

 

Here is the thread of my project....

[Lloyd]

Thanks, I was looking for the thread. Didn't look like a whole lot of mods to get it to fit. Mostly the center hole required a machinist but that aint nothing. I see you gave a measurement to the shifter, Ill have to check that out. That's a good possibility, thanks Robert.

[martybose]

You're more likely to find an OD transmission on a Dodge 230, as they started using them several years earlier.  Other than availability, either will work fine.  There is some good documentation on their theory of operation, and as long as you have a good solenoid and governor on the transmission, the rest of the electric control system can be built using new relays.

 

The other possibiity is a T-5 "world class" 5 speed, usually from an S-10 truck.  Many people have adapted them to our flatheads, and at least one vendor sells an adapter setup.

 

Marty

[Lloyd]

Could someone look at this tranny on ebay and tell by looking if it is an overdrive trans?

 

NOS Plymouth Dodge Desoto Chrysler Transmission 41 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 52 53 54

http://www.ebay.com/itm/380652686987?item=380652686987&viewitem=&vxp=mtr

 

I see it fits from 41-54 Plymouth. That should be during the 201 & 218 ci engines. Then Plymouth started with the 230 ci in 55. However Dodge Cars started with the 230 ci in 42. Dodge trucks started in 41. Why is the tranny listed as fitting Plymouths up to the year they began putting the 230 in their cars but Dodge was well into the 230 and the tranny is still listed as fitting the Dodge?

[Plymouthy Adams]

LLoyd..read the post replies you get..as stated earlier the 54 Plymouth was the first of the 230 engine in the Plymouth line up and the only year they used the DIAMOND in the engine number to denote that size..it became STOCK in '55  Your link is not an OD tranny..and do not for a second overlook the fact that your search could well find an OD (B/W R10) in a 51 Plymouth as the factory made these kits available to dealerships to enhance left over 51's or satisfy customers who just could not run out and buy a new car every year..

[Lloyd]

do not for a second overlook the fact that your search could well find an OD (B/W R10) in a 51 Plymouth as the factory made these kits available to dealerships to enhance left over 51's or satisfy customers who just could not run out and buy a new car every year..

 

That's a thought, thanks. I was just poking around and found the trans on Ebay last night but had no idea if it might be w/OD.

It seems I am getting pointed towards locating a Plymouth/Dodge 230 - probably Dodge and using a T5 trans. I say T5 because I read that the S10 requires a bit more mods.

http://5speedadapter.com/

The biggest problem with the T5 may be the shifter is to far back. The above link states:

"The Mustang box has one big problem...unless you have bucket seats the shifter is too far back so you’ll have to buy a second box just to get the S-10 tailhousing and shift parts."

Which I do not have bucket seats and that does not sound like fun, however if the shifter is not to far back without modifications then that would be the best route since it involves less mods then the S10. However if it is to far back then perhaps the S10 trans may be less work to get in.

Question is - if I needed to - how do you put a Chevy S10 tailhousing and shift parts on a ford T5 transmission? 

[Plymouthy Adams]

look to the internet on that very word search and find all you looking for..the numbers and such will be there along with best years etc ..AND...if keeping the stock flattie..I suggest a wide ratio model tranny for best all around performance

Edited September 2, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[Jim Yergin]

I built a 230 for my '41 Plymouth using a Plymouth P23 block and the crank, connecting rods and flywheel from a 1947 Dodge. One thing I discovered was that the Dodge crank, because it was mated to a fluid drive, did not have a fully machined opening for the pilot bushing. I had to machine my pilot bushing to get it to fit. Just something you may want to be aware of since I think most Dodges came with fluid drive.

Jim Yergin

[Robert Horne]

My TK5 Ranger trans has the shifter very far to the rear of the trans.

 

Look at the "5speed, not T5" thread, page 6, post #112, you can see

 

the photo of how I got around this, by curving the shifter.

 

I have a bench seat, from a GMC Surburban.

[Lloyd]

I measured the distance from the front flange on my trans - back of the bell housing - to the edge of my front seat, some eye-ballin going on but it looks like 17 inches - should be pretty close.

 

What Im seeing from the S10 or T5 with S10 tail shaft is about 11 - 12 inches from the forward flange on the trans to the shifter. That would pretty much put it where I need it.

Robert from what I saw with your install it put yours at about 23-24 inches. Its a pretty impressive match you did but I need my shifter a foot forward.

 

I found this article:

http://www.flatheadv8.org/t5-swap.htm

 

About half way down the page - Comments from the forum - Randy Z redrilled the flywheel to accept an S10 pressure plate. Hes using the S10 throw-out bearing and clutch disc. He had to modify the throw out fork but that does not sound bad - what ever it needs. I would guess there are some pilot bushings available for the input shaft since there are plenty of adapters around just for the S10 to Flathead conversion.

 

Just shooting in the dark here fellows, does anyone see any major ifs or buts with this approach?

[Lloyd]

I built a 230 for my '41 Plymouth using a Plymouth P23 block and the crank, connecting rods and flywheel from a 1947 Dodge. One thing I discovered was that the Dodge crank, because it was mated to a fluid drive, did not have a fully machined opening for the pilot bushing. I had to machine my pilot bushing to get it to fit. Just something you may want to be aware of since I think most Dodges came with fluid drive.

Jim Yergin

Thanks for the heads up Jim, yes there was a post earlier by Greg mentioned that the cranks on the dodges were 'beefier' because of the fluid drive trans. I would surely hope to find a mid 50's Plymouth engine to avoid this. However, if you rebuilt a Plymouth block with a Dodge crank then that should mean I can get a Plymouth crank and put it in the Dodge block if that becomes a problem.

[Don Coatney]

Lloyd;

What cars/projects have you worked on in the past? Have you ever done an engine or transmission swap? How well equipped is your shop/work area? I ask as it is easy to get in over your head when starting a project such as you are discussing. There is a lot of knowledge and support available on this forum but the brunt of the work will fall on your shoulders. You might want to get your car running and get comfortable with it before you dive in head first doing major modifications.

 

If you click on my photobucket link below and open my T-5 album I have several pictures that will answer your pleminary questions.

[Lloyd]

Hey Don,

I appreciate the advice and the concern. I know my questions may sound a bit ignorant here but I believe I can handle it from the get-go. If not I will get help.

In the past I have done 2 trucks and 1 car. A 1960 Ford Pick up that I overhauled the engine - a 223 6cyl and a number of other fixes. Then a 1959 chevy Apache that required another engine rebuild and other old truck repairs. Then a 1964 GTO which took another engine rebuild as well as repair reverse gear in the tranny.

Also swapped a thunderbird engine into a 1963 Galaxie then turned around and took the engine out w/4 speed and put it into a 1965 ford galaxie. When I found out Ford changed the engine mounting from 63 to 65. I moved the mounts using angle iron, fabricated a crossmember, throttle and clutch linkage to get it to go. I also got started on a 1940 chevy master deluxe coupe in high school but never finished it. I put a 389 Pontiac motor in that, had to move the firewall back a few inches. There was a 72 Road Runner in there as well. Got 2 of them same year for free believe it or not and built one. Plus I swapped an automatic for a standard in a late 60's chevy PU for a friend.

Other than that - just took care of my own stuff, normal stuff, brakes, timing chains, carburetors... and a few others down the line.

But flatheads I must admit - I know nothing about - never touched one. Although I've been under a hood enough I feel comfortable with it. It actually looks easier then a OHV 6 or 8 cyl.

The transmission is a question but I am leaning on the S10 5 spd and considering the mod Randy Z posted by drilling holes in the flywheel for the S10 pressure plate. To me that sounds like the easiest. As long as the flywheel checks out good and balance afterwards. I also like the idea of a diaphragm pressure plate. One thing I have a question of is the length of the input shaft that I need. If the S10 is a standard length or should I be looking for a specific length.

I have all of the tools I should need, more than enough to pull and rebuild the engine and put it back. Any machine work or welding I will need help.

[Jim Wilson]

I used  a completely different approach when building my '39 P8 Plymouth. It has a 1959 Plymouth 230 block followed by a 1939 Chrysler transmission with a Borg-Warner R7 overdrive. The advantage to this installation is that it is totally bolt-in, retains your existing column shift, and can be easily returned to its original configuration, if someone in the future wishes to do so. A new, shorter driveshaft must be built, so save the old one for the future. 

[Lloyd]

Hey Jim, thanks for the input.

Something like this? Would this work..

http://www.ebay.com/itm/360725809356

[Jim Wilson]

Yes, that's the right kind.

[Don Coatney]

Good luck on your project.

[Lloyd]

Check out this link Don:

http://5speedadapter.com/

 

He is saying that the throw-out bearing needs to be honed or a sleeve added, option to use a Cherokee throw-out bearing. That does not sound to bad. His kit includes a pilot bushing so I guess even with the gas S-10 you will need it. That's all good, one thing that catches my attention is the following statement about using a special clutch disc with a reversed offset hub to get the splines of the input shaft deeper into the clutch disc. If this is true then the problem I see is what to do when it comes time to replace the clutch disc?

I did look at your album, thanks.

[knuckleharley]

..I have done a few cars, 1960 ford PU, 1959 chevy Apache, 1964 GTO. But nothing  like this and surely nothing on flatheads.

 

Im glad this forum is here, Ive gotten some good direction with just my first post!

 

Still not sure on why P15-D24 says swap the entire unit with a 46 or later complete engine when his Hollanders is stating that the 39 201 block is not a swap for the 46 or later block.

If you have done modern cars,the late 30's and 40's stuff will be like a day at the beach to you. Much simplier cars and easier to work on. Just different.

 

Well, removing the rear brake drums can be a problem,but it's nothing the proper puller and a huge amount of patience can't defeat. With the proper amount of swearing,throwing stuff around the shop,and a short vacation once they are removed added,of course.

 

You were told to look for a complete 46 or later engine because they are more modern designs and none of the major internal parts will work on your 201 engine. It's much simpler and cheaper to just rebuilt a 46 to 59 flat 6 Plymouth or Dodge engine and bolt it in than it would be to pay somebody to modify and install install the modern crank,rods,and pistons in your engine,or to modify your block to accept them. IF that were even possible,which it isn't.

 

I would suggest you keep your original engine stored away somewhere in case you ever decide to restore your car. Check the engine number first to see if it matches the number on the title. If it doesn't,it's not the original engine anyhow,so you have nothing to lose by installing a more modern flat 6. Your new Hollanders will tell you everything you need to know about 1939 serial numbers and where to find them.

[knuckleharley]

I believe that transition was between '34 and '35, not '35 and '36.

 

They changed the block for full length water jackets in '35 and added the water distribution tube. So the starter had to move outward a little as opposed to being nestled in the gap between the water jacket and the crank area. Head gasket is different '33/34 versus all the other years for that same reason but the bearings, pistons are the same '33 through '41 and the crank and rods the same '34 through '41 ('34 was basically a stroked '33).

When did they go away from the floor shifter being bolted to the transmission like a 50's afternmarket floor shift?

 

I have a floor shift trans that was supposed to have came out of a 37 Plymouth. BTW,if you know of anybody that has one,I need the whole shift lever. It's missing from my transmission.

Edited September 3, 2013 by knuckleharley

[knuckleharley]

furd and chevy  Od trans are readily avail (nobody wants them!) and not too expensive..

 

It's not impossible but it could be a long search. Some memebers have been lucky checking all older wrecking yards in their area.

 

I sold a BW overdrive from a 49 Lincoln parts car I have to a guy in Kansas for $650,and he was thrilled to get it at that price.

 

I did manage to buy a Mopar OD trans from a 53 Dodge hemi for $150 when I was out in ND last year,but have no idea if it will work with my flat 6 230 or not. I haven't had the time to fool with trying to mate it,and at that price I knew I couldn't go wrong because it will fit the early Chrysler hemi V-8's that have the bellhousing as a part of the block. The input shaft is really long.

Edited September 3, 2013 by knuckleharley

[Lloyd]

If you have done modern cars,the late 30's and 40's stuff will be like a day at the beach to you. Much simplier cars and easier to work on. Just different.

 

Well, removing the rear brake drums can be a problem,but it's nothing the proper puller and a huge amount of patience can't defeat. With the proper amount of swearing,throwing stuff around the shop,and a short vacation once they are removed added,of course.

 

You were told to look for a complete 46 or later engine because they are more modern designs and none of the major internal parts will work on your 201 engine. It's much simpler and cheaper to just rebuilt a 46 to 59 flat 6 Plymouth or Dodge engine and bolt it in than it would be to pay somebody to modify and install install the modern crank,rods,and pistons in your engine,or to modify your block to accept them. IF that were even possible,which it isn't.

 

I would suggest you keep your original engine stored away somewhere in case you ever decide to restore your car. Check the engine number first to see if it matches the number on the title. If it doesn't,it's not the original engine anyhow,so you have nothing to lose by installing a more modern flat 6. Your new Hollanders will tell you everything you need to know about 1939 serial numbers and where to find them.

 

Thanks KnuckleHarley, not sure if the 60's would be modern. Talk about the stuff today and Im lost. But with this engine I have no qualms. Just never tried to put an overdrive trans behind a flathead. That's why Im here to try and get some idea. Either way its going to happen. Beside I don't look at this as work or a chore or even something that needs to get done. Working on cars to me is fun! Its what I like to do in my spare time. Plus this is a challenge, and I'm up for that. I look forward to it. I will be locating a 46 or later 230 and mating it to an OD trans then putting it in this car. I will need help with the drive shaft. After that I will look at the rear-end then all new brakes. Finally the front end, suspension and steering. When all that's done I will start on electrical. Somewhere down the road I am going to get someone to do all the body work, interior and paint. Maybe next year - late.

Ive got time to figure the trans out and in the meantime I will get another engine and rebuild it.

Looks like you have done a few cars.

[knuckleharley]

Thanks KnuckleHarley, not sure if the 60's would be modern.

 

Looks like you have done a few cars.

Don't forget this is a board primarily dedicated to 1946 to 1948 cars. 1960 is modern to us.

 

And "No,I have never done a car." Did a few 40's to 70's Harleys in the 60's and 70's,but never finished a car or truck.

 

Started to do several when I was younger,but never got one more than maybe 3/4 done before I had to sell them. My first two were  a 38 Chrysler and a 40 Ford. I did get the Chrysler running and driving,but not the Ford. My father sold both for scrap while I was at school. My father hated old cars.

 

I bought the 38 when I was 13 and the 40 when I was 14 with money I earned working construction labor and on a shrimpboat in the summer.

 

Now that I am retired and own my own house and workshop,I plan on finishing a couple and hope to be working on another one the day I fall over dead. Now that I have the tools I need, my shop wired and plumbed,and have the bathroom almost done,air conditioning almost installed,and a 275K BTU furnace sitting on the floor,I hope to start getting busy this winter and have a couple of them on the road by next spring.

 

Providing nothing else goes wrong with the house  or my health to suck up all my money,that is. Took a heavy hit in home repairs and doctor/hospital bills last winter,but almost have all that paid off now.

 

Getting old sucks.

 

It's expensive,too.

Edited September 3, 2013 by knuckleharley

[DJ194950]

Know wat you're saying too well!!!   


Doug

[Lloyd]

Yeah getting old is a bummer. Im the same way, never really had enough to do a project up like I wanted to but things are a lot different. Guess I got more responsible somewhere along the way.

I had a 66 Triumph TR6 when I was in the service. Back in 72. Tore it down to nothing then got it bored out cant remember how much but I hung the frame from a tree outside the barracks and spray painted it with good ole Rust-O-Leum. Put 10 inch over tubes with chrome shocks, a 19 inch spool wheel up front, bolt on hardtail that extended and lowered how much - who knows. Plus a big 4 inch on the back. King & Queen seat, everything chrome I could get. Road like a truck but it was a cool ride.