Jeff Balazs Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Well.....my recent clutch replacement did not make the sounds I was hearing go away. It is noticeably quieter with the clutch depressed. I am not sure if or how much noise a fluid drive should make at idle in neutral but I can hear a sort of faint squeeling that goes away compltely when I step on the clutch. After reading more and listening closely I believe the sounds are coming from the fluid drive itself. Must be due for a bearing and bushing replacement. I have searched the forum but have not come across a source for rebuilding these. If anyone knows who or where please let me know. I am sure this one will continue to work for a while but I need to get this corrected. Thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
55 Fargo Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Try Northwest transmission, http://nwtparts.com/ I have a fluid drive unit in the shed, but shipping would be wicked from my part of Canada. It is from a 48 Chrysler... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Are you sure it's not the transmission input shaft bearing? The FD unit shouldn't make any noise, ever. And at idle, with no load on it, it would be spinning as one complete mass. The only time it would slip would be if you release the clutch with the trans in gear and the truck was held in place with the brakes. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) Jeff you might be correct about the noise coming from a bearing or bushing. I don’t know much about the fluid drive clutch but if where the clutch meets the pressure plate is the same set up as the manual unit. I had a similar problem in that “I can hear a sort of faint squealing that goes away completely when I step on the clutch.” For me, it turned out to be clearance issues between the fingers (wrong pressure plate) and the Retainer. It caused a sort of "whinny" like a horse. A new retainer (lucky to find) and the correct pressure plate solved my problem. My guess: Pilot bearing. Good Luck, Hank Edited August 30, 2013 by HanksB3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted August 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Hi Merle; Well I am not absolutely certain but there is a write up under service diagnosis in the Fluid drive section of the manual that seems to discuss this sound. I had not noticed this write up prior to relacing the clutch. Take a look and see what you think. Having never owned one of these before makes precise diagnosis sort of difficult. The sound is not awful but is definitely noticeable. When it first started a while back I thought it was a bad fan belt or water pump bearing. It comes and goes some too. I suppose it could be coming from the transmission? But if it is I have never heard one make this sort of noise? I can hear the idler shaft spinning when in neutral. Was thinking I might drain it and put some semi fluid grease in it to see if that made any difference. I am at this point now where I feel like I have done most everything really well. Engine runs sweet....nothing leaking....and with all the insulation and soundproofing I have done this cab is very quiet......as long as the clutch is in I appreciate any help or suggestions you can give in getting this sorted out. I am in the close but no cigar mode now. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Did you lube the input shaft/and or bushings with a small amount of light weight oil before installing the trans? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted August 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Did you lube the input shaft/and or bushings with a small amount of light weight oil before installing the trans? Yes but I used a little dab of high temp wheel bearing grease instead of oil. The noise is the same as it was before I pulled the transmission. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
De Soto Frank Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 The only field-serviceable part of the Fluid Coupling is the seal, and perhaps the two needle bearings. If memory serves correctly, a bad seal may cause a screeching or squealing sound;I've had one vehicle where a fluid coupling went bad: a 1950 New Yorker, with the straight-eight. The ball-bearing in the front ofthe unti went bad, allowing the driven-member (and drive-plate) to wobble, and eventually, the center hub of the clutch friction-disc tore-out of the flex-disc. The only noise the fluid coupling made was a slight scraping-sound, when the engine was shut-off, and the driven member was spinning-down to rest. That soudn was the vanes of the driven-member rubbing against the drive-member inside the Fluid Coupling. There was no squealing or screeching, though. I would also be suspicious of your throw-out bearing... perhaps just sitting there, it is making noise, but when you put a load on it, the noise lessens, disappears. Does the noise occur as the vehicle is being driven ? There are some places that will rebuild a fluid coupling. I think forum member James Douglas looked into this. They cut the unit apart, replace the bearing, repair any damage, then re-weld and balance the unit. I would rule-out all other possibilities first, though... (clutch, pressure-plate, throw-out, pilot bearings, tranmission bearings ). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted August 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 Frank; There is definitely no outward sign of leakage. The unit is full with fresh Tractor oil and works fine with no scraping noise. The throw out bearing is brand new along with the clutch. It made the exact same noise before I changed the clutch and throw out bearing. Not sure about the transmission. It shifts ok and does not seem to make any funny noises itself....at least the type I would expect it to make. I could try running a different type of grease it it to see if that made any difference in the sound that is being made. The truck is not licensed yet so I can only get it up to about 35mph in the area I have it......but the noise is definitely not as pronounced in gear as it is when in neutral. Thanks, Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 If it's different when in gear I would again suspect a trans issue. Possibly the input shaft inner needle bearing, Item #21-17-2 in the exploded view above. If it goes away entirely in 4th gear that would confirm that. At that point the two shafts are spinning together. Or your throwout bearing is slightly touching the clutch when the pedal is released. Can you look form underneith to confirm that the little spring is pulling it away from the clutch fingers? Maybe you could spin the clutch by hand, with the engine off, and listen for any noises. This would involve turning the output of the FD with the input held in place. You won't be able to turn it fast, but if something is rubbing it may be noticible. If it were the pilot bushing, it would be more pronounced with the clutch pedal depressed. With the clutch engaged the input shaft is spinning with the drive plate. So you can probably rule that out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted August 30, 2013 Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 (edited) If it were the pilot bushing, it would be more pronounced with the clutch pedal depressed. With the clutch engaged the input shaft is spinning with the drive plate. So you can probably rule that out. Oh, hank Edited August 30, 2013 by HanksB3B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted August 30, 2013 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2013 If it's different when in gear I would again suspect a trans issue. Possibly the input shaft inner needle bearing, Item #21-17-2 in the exploded view above. If it goes away entirely in 4th gear that would confirm that. At that point the two shafts are spinning together. Or your throwout bearing is slightly touching the clutch when the pedal is released. Can you look form underneith to confirm that the little spring is pulling it away from the clutch fingers? Maybe you could spin the clutch by hand, with the engine off, and listen for any noises. This would involve turning the output of the FD with the input held in place. You won't be able to turn it fast, but if something is rubbing it may be noticible. If it were the pilot bushing, it would be more pronounced with the clutch pedal depressed. With the clutch engaged the input shaft is spinning with the drive plate. So you can probably rule that out. Merle and Frank; It seems that it is the throw out bearing making contact. After thinking about it for a while I decided to readjust the clutch pedal. I just made a quick adjustment......and the noise went away for a minute and then started back up.....I then found I could make it go away just by tapping the pedal, So either some fine tuning of this adjustment or drop the inspection pan and check that spring again. I know I checked it before I buttoned up.... but it could have come off? This is great news as it has to be easier to fix than the FD itself. Who know's ? Maybe I will get this thing completed after all. I am not sure I am up for too many more fights with this thing. I really need to get it finished and put it to work!!! Y'all have a great Holiday. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted September 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Chasing the noise.......Rounds 2,3 & 4. Bouyed up by the thought that perhaps all that was causing this noise was a fine tuning of the pedal linkage I settled in to this task today. I tried many different pedal settings to no avail. No matter what the setting was the noise was there......and would go away with some light pressure on the pedal. Remove the foot and back comes the noise. So I dropped the inspection pan fully expecting the retaining spring to be adrift. It wasn't. It was there doing exactly what it was supposed to do. So then I decided to go through the range of adjustments again. No change there. As I was working on this I noticed a bit of play in the pedal linkage. Seems the holes that the clevis pins go through are a bit oversize or oblong. I thought perhaps this might be causing the problem as it created some play that could be seen at the return. In order to properly fix this the pedal assembly and all the linkage would need to be trued up and bushings installed. I came up with a quick fix to test my new theory. I rigged up a return spring not unlike that side spring on the throttle linkage which would pull the slack out of the linkage. It worked and I had high hopes for an improvment so I buttoned her up and tested again. The noise was still there. By this point I am starting to run out of ideas. I have a brand new clutch and throw out bearing.....everything thing is clean and seems to be working properly. I just have this annoying noise. So I dropped the inspection pan again and using a tiny bit of grease on a 1/4" artists brush I painted a bit on the tips of the clutch fingers and put it all back together again. I fired it up and there was that noise again. I sat there wondering what to try next. I decided to rest my foot on the pedal for a while to make the noise go away. I must of left it there a minute or two.....but when I let my foot off the noise did not return. So I took it for a spin around the parking lot. Great!.... nice and quiet. Feeling pretty good about all this I parked the truck and decided to do some other stuff. A half hour later I fired it up again....and there was my noise. Touched the pedal for a moment and it went away...again. Not really sure what is going on here ??? but when the noise goes away things are very good. It seems to me that these old trucks are just really weird. I may just have to change its' name from Ram-ble on to Dazed and Confused. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted September 1, 2013 Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Is there an actual pedal stop for the up position on your truck or is the pedal stop the floor board? Cars have a up stop limit and do not use the floorboard as a stop. Cars also use a rubber draft seal as pictured below. Do trucks use this seal? Is it possible that the noise is the pedal resting against the floorboard? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted September 1, 2013 Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 It only makes the noise with very slight pedal pressure like if you reached in the cab and lightly pushed the clutch pedal down enough with your hand to put pressure on the release bearing? Did you replace the TO bearing with a new one of good USA quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted September 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Hi Guys; Don the trucks use the floor board as the up stop. It does have a rubber draft seal along with some auxillary insulation. Trust me the sound is not generated by the pedal itself. It seems to be coming from the interface between the clutch fingers and the throw out bearing. I have checked carefully and the retaining spring is pulling the bearing back away from these fingers. So I just don't know??? The clutch assembly was sent to Tennessee Clutch and they provided a new bearing as well as a rebuilt clutch. The whole thing is kind of odd and may somehow relate directly to it being a fluid drive as there are several differences between them and non FD components. I am not a professional auto mechanic but have worked on a fair amount of varying machinery over the years. I know I have never come across such a "sensitive" situation like this with a TO bearing......but then again this is my first old Mopar. Usually items like this are pretty straight forward. They either work or they need replacing. This new clutch and throw out bearing are making the exact same noise as the old ones. I am now fairly certain that there was nothing wrong with the old ones other than the way the TO bearing must have been rubbing against the clutch fingers. Randall did send the old one back and it does not seem "notchy" like you would expect from a bad bearing. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted September 1, 2013 Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 On my P-15 there are spring clips that hold the throwout bearing retainer to the clutch fork. Does your truck have these spring clips and are they intact? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ194950 Posted September 1, 2013 Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 Looking back at post #4, There is a bearing inside of the fluid drive unit that could be bad. I'd think that could only happen if the other bushings in that post went bad in the past and were not repaired and internal seal went bad and fluid drive was run low on fluid at some point. Repairs on these are Very expensive and I hope you find some other reason behind this. Although a pain, maybe some has a fluid drive that you could swap units and try. I know--last resort! Doug Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted September 1, 2013 Report Share Posted September 1, 2013 On my P-15 there are spring clips that hold the throwout bearing retainer to the clutch fork. Does your truck have these spring clips and are they intact? Trucks do not use that setup. They clutch bearing is pushed by vertical pieces on a common shaft rather than the cars horizontal pushing. Then at the 12oclock position there is a spring between the top of the bellhousing and the bearing retainer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted September 2, 2013 Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 You did not answer my question so I cannot help you. I have worked on lots of these FD couplings, M5/M6's and std Mopar straight 3 speeds. The reason I asked about very light pressure on the pedal was to isolate the FD coupling fron the release bearing as to which one we need to investigate more. The FD coupling in late 1950 and up is the better updated seal assembly-not the older copper bellows seal and graphite ring style which as I recall is replaced withe the steel sleeve and graphite ring to eliminate the noise issue that some copper bellows caused.I kinda doubt your FD coupling is the noise though-unless the pilot bushings are worn out from high mileage or incorrect lube. The two bushings will only squeal when in gear with the clutch pedal fully pushed to the floor as mentioned previously. Those two Oilite bushings are self lubricating but a few drops of light oil on them is not a bad thing. They should be cheched for galling and wear though when clutch or trans work is done. Needle bearings were used on early 1946 and back FD couplings. Get under the truck with the dust cover off and carefully use a 3/4" hose to try to locate exactly where the noise is coming from while someone pushes on the clutch pedal. Only do this if you feel safe doing it as the hose could get wrapped up in the FD unit if you were careless! Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted September 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 Bob; Yes it was going away with very light, even hand pressure on the clutch pedal. At this point I am fairly certain that it is a clearance related issue. That is why my efforts were concentrated on the pedal adjustment and trying to compensate for some slop in the linkage. It isn't making any other type of noise and is functioning fine otherwise. I am hoping that the addition of the spring I added will for now keep it at bay. If what I have done continues to work for a while then I will know for certain that it is the wear I found in the pedal linkage that is causing this. Not sure what else it could be but I would like to know for certain before I go through the exercise of reconditioning the linkage. This particular linkage and TO bearing yoke arrangement seems awfully "sensitive or fussy" for use in a work truck to me. I certainly was not expecting it to be this way. This is not the first time I have been "surprised" by something on this truck. I suppose it is a combination of a bit of wear here and there that is causing this but then again it could just be my lack of familiarity with old mopars that is causing me so much head scratching. Don; As Young Ed mentions the trucks do not utilize any form of retaining clip. I kind of wish they did as I feel certain that there is a bit of the "float factor" occuring in this location ..... and that is probably what has caused this noise to be so hard to track down. Oh well. I did get it to go away for quite a while yesterday.......and when that noise is gone .... all is good. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted September 2, 2013 Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 If it is noise from the clutch fork shaft fingers resting ever so slightly against the release bearing than most likely the new bearing is either bad or loose on the bearing retainer on the front of the transmission. You should never have to adjust re-adjust the free play to get rid of a noise after a clutch job. I think when you put enough pressure load on the release bearing it loads it enough to eliminate any looseness and makes it quiet. Also it is quiet when you get it to pull completely back by free play adjustment which can be tough on the dodge trucks. But the bearing if it is the noise should not make noise even with slight pressure on it. Was it a USA or China bearing? If China-end of search! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted September 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 Bob; I did not look at it to see if it was chinese. It came from Tennessee Clutch. The truck was making this exact same noise with the old bearing in place. I really think the issue is not with the bearing but the linkage and yolk assembly. A bit of play or flutter in this maybe? Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted September 2, 2013 Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 I kinda now agree it really cannot be the new bearing ifthe same noise before and after replacement. But something is not with in rotating tolerance. Did you check the clutch cross shaft/fork for being really loose in the bell housing? Is there any vibration from the engine in nuetral at idle and when raising engine speed (wobbling fluid drive coupling)? This would be caused by a worn FD coupling front bearing or worn pilot bushings. Maybe even loose FD coupling to crankshaft nuts. Unlikely though. All These things, could cause an issue as to having difficulty adjusting the free play and noise. More things to think about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Balazs Posted September 2, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 2, 2013 Bob; Good I am glad you agree about the bearing. It seems like sometimes you have to be a real Sherlock Holmes to trace some of this stuff down. And believe me I do appreciate your assitance. There does not seem to be any undue vibration in the drivetrain. In fact the engine is running as smoothly as anyone has a right to expect. The one thing I have not done is run it with the inspection pan off and look. When I was working on it yesterday I was by myself. Wish I had a rack as that would make this a bit easier. The area I am most suspicous of is the fit of the bearing retainer in the crossfork. I think some uneveness or slop in the mating surfaces there would be very difficult to diagnose and correct. I guess I am just used to seeing bearing retainer that uses a more positive feature like a captured fork to retract the bearing. Or if like they did with the autos of the period Chrysler had designed this with some sort of retainer clip we probably would not be having this discussion. This system probably worked fine when it was all new and unworn. 60+ years later there is certainly some wear in the various components and trying to come up with a practical solution is a challenge. Jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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