1949windsor Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 None, nata. I have a 1949 Windsor with fluid drive 2 speed. I took it to a local mechanic to have it tuned up and have them look at the transmission which for some reason won't auto downshift in to the low gear, and always requires the clutch to be pressed down when stopped. After 3 months I finally took it back as they were not able to make much progress. No progress on the tranny whatsoever, and car would overheat in about 10 minutes... The timing was off 20 degrees and the carb rebuild they did had the thing put together wrong... So I regapped teh spark plugs just to make sure, reset the dwell to 39' set the timing to 0 TDC, which for the most part got the temps back in line. I fixed the carb back to specs and it is running much better. But now I noticed that as the RPM increases(which is now possible without overheating) I lose power until I have none and have to short shift... seems like more electrical problems so I immediately suspect its something wrong with the carb again.. Well I noticed they had also put the heat exchange valve thingy on backwards (always open) as well so I then fixed that I check the carb and everything else seemed to be fine... I suspected that maybe it was a vacuum leak but no. I checked the vacuum advance and it was holding vacuum without leaking and moving the distributor rotor properly. I connected a timing light and started it up before reconnecting the vacuum and there I could not get any advance no matter how much I revved up the engine??? I took apart the distributor and checked everything and it all seemed fine. The only thing is that the springs looked new on the weights which does concern me given everything else that got screwed up. Is there any way to check what these spring rates are supposed to be, or does anyone carry a rebuild kit for these distros. I figure at 60+ years old it can't be a bad thing to replace the bushings and anything else that wears while I have it out. Thanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) outside of putting this on a distributor machine you have but basically one option and that is a timing light that you can dial-in the check the advance..the vacuum must not be connected when testing the mechanical rate. Taking your dwell of 39 tells me you have the 6 cylinder so your mechanical advance should start at 1 degree at 450 rpm and graduate to full advance of 10 at 1425 RPM...vacuum starts 1 degree at 6 in. of mercury with a total of 9 degrees at 15 inches of mercury should have joined in on chat last night when you were there..this would have been just as easily covered there.. Edited July 15, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 I did check the mechanical advance like you recommended and there was zero advance at any RPM. I don't even know how that is possible. I guess unless it is full advanced at the lower RPM ?? I am at a loss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 sound like you have something rusted fast within the distributor..disassembly my be your best move at this time to see what is not rotating properly... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Seems someone was in the area of the counterweights as you feel it has new springs. Could go either way. As you stated, maybe full advance early. Could be the springs were replaced, and have too much tension and will not advance Counterweight pivot area should be lubricated so weights can pivot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 It was the springs... I'm not sure what they came off of, but it certainly was not for my dizzy. I had to use a pair of pliers to even get enough leverage to move them. Went to Napa to get new springs and for some reason I talked myself into switching it over to a slant 6 distributor electronic ignition with GM HEI. I spent a lot of time on here reading others woes about ignition issues trying to find out what might be my problem and everyone who did the conversion raved about the results and how easy it was. Since its already converted over to 12v anyways I figured why not.Already completed the distributor conversion ($75 including cap and rotor) which only took about 1.5 hours, including disassembly, turning down the housing on my drill press, and reassembly. I am a little concerned as that had to be the easiest mod I have done on a car... ever.Going to hit the junkyard in the morning to get the HEI/coil/wiring harness which will probably go horribly wrong to balance how easy the distributor conversion was today This is where I got most of the info from and it was spot on and easy:http://p15-d24.com/topic/27231-flathead-to-slant-6-distributor-conversion/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 GM module..?????? converted /6 distributor....make no sense to me to go that route..but hey ..that is just me I guess.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 16, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 GM module..?????? converted /6 distributor....make no sense to me to go that route..but hey ..that is just me I guess.. /6 Electronic ignition = no more points. HEI means better spark, more power and better fuel mileage... and its simple to do, readily available and inexpensive. Here is a thread off another mopar site about the HEI conversions: http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=28732&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 HEI is not any better than the coil....HEI is really speak for Hall Effect Ignition..only the GM folks are so daft they call it High Energy Ignition..it bunk on their part...the mopar module is better read up on it...its the racers edge... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 Just go by the service manual and you should do fine. HEI's and HIE's or whatever is for Mr. Bad Wrench. Real Mopar mechanics restore engines to original - not substitute parts. If that's your GIG own a Chevy, or just put Chevy engines in everything. Mr. Good Wrench will Love all you Mr. Bad Wrenches L.M.A.O. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted July 16, 2013 Report Share Posted July 16, 2013 Just go by the service manual and you should do fine. HEI's and HIE's or whatever is for Mr. Bad Wrench. Real Mopar mechanics restore engines to original - not substitute parts. If that's your GIG own a Chevy, or just put Chevy engines in everything. Mr. Good Wrench will Love all you Mr. Bad Wrenches L.M.A.O. Nope. I like Mopars as much as anyone, but until someone comes out with a slant 6 electronic conversion that is a bolt-in with the correct advance curve for a flathead, I'll stick with my Landon HEI conversion, which only gives me trouble when I try to mess with it. Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 17, 2013 Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 have you actually compared the curve of the /6 with electronic ignition to that of the flatty????....I say you have not...! but hey it's you car to do as you wish but it is not right to not make generalization on a distributor of which it is apparent you have no information.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martybose Posted July 17, 2013 Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 have you actually compared the curve of the /6 with electronic ignition to that of the flatty????....I say you have not...! but hey it's you car to do as you wish but it is not right to not make generalization on a distributor of which it is apparent you have no information.. Sorry Tim, but my generalization was about people who get on their high horses about using GM parts in our Plymouths, not about Slant 6's. Marty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Not sure who is on their high horse about GM parts, but it went in in less than and hour. Better idle, better acceleration, not run it long enough to know about the gas mileage. All parts combined cost less than $150 and went in total time in about 3.5 hour. The parts are available everywhere about half the wiring needed compared to mopar and no ballast resistor to go bad. Not sure why some mopar people believe that everything mopar puts out is the best?I have a 2006 Charger R/T. 1 week ago at just under 100k miles and it dropped the intake valve seat on cylinder 4??? Never overheated it, nothing, just went to start the car after getting gas and away it went. Got online and apparently EVERYONE is having this problem at or around 100k miles... to the point that engine re-manufactures wont even give more than a 12k mile warranty on the POS HEMI 5.7L engine. Oh and its made by Dodge. My Ford explorer BTW has 446K miles on it and only requires oil changes.... I also put radial tires on too Edited July 17, 2013 by 1949windsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 17, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2013 have you actually compared the curve of the /6 with electronic ignition to that of the flatty????....I say you have not...! but hey it's you car to do as you wish but it is not right to not make generalization on a distributor of which it is apparent you have no information.. Actually the /6 conversion used my original shaft/weights/springs from my original distributor, so shouldn't the curve should stay the same? The only thing that might be different would be the vacuum advance which is adjustable anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I have no problem of folks using mix and match but I have trouble following your pattern here..while on the one hand you use the original distributor and that of the /6 and combine them for a drop in late model conversion. ..so changes made on one hand where you are guessing/hoping of our advance curve both mechanical and vacuum.and then you condemn the Mopar module for that of the GM module..you slam the dropping resistor of the Mopar and tend to forget that this very resistor is integral to the coil of the GM unit you ....guess what, the resistor in the Mopar external setup is a couple bucks, two second trouble shoot and 1 minute repair whereas you will have to replace the coil of the GM if a failure and they do fail... So if you have a problem where are you going to start on your trouble hooting..Again I an not out to criticize you and again it is your car your money..I just fail to se the logic. The hook up for the Mopar module is two wires (HEI loop) from the internal trigger pickup in the distributor, one power wire to the module and the output to the coil negative..and in both cases you will have the power to the coil only the resistor will be inline with the Mopar setup..extrememly simple. The module is not caring if 4,6,8 or 10 cylinder nor who makes the pickup as long as it falls within the 600-800 pickup coil range..thus is very retro for many cars on the market..and the final key sales point for me, since I973 I have never ever had to replaced a failed module..and only two resistors..one was due to improper mounting where the hood was lifted and the water dumped on a hot resistor and rapid cooling broke the wiring/ceramic block..proper location of components go a long way... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I bought an extra distributor for my car - used on ebay but in reasonable shape. Took it apart and put it back together again several times to familiarize myself with its functions. As a result, I have gained some knowledge, and an extra part for my car. Everyone is entitled to their own methods on their own cars. I have read the praises on the HEI Systems. I just wouldn't personally change mine out for that system. Nothing wrong with Chevy's, I've even owned a few in my day (64 and 72 models, even an 85). Truth is I'm a bit of an electrical ignoramus and don't understand those HEI Systems. If you knew someone monked up the springs in your Distributor, why not replace them only, and be proud of yourself for finding the culprit in short order? Not meaning to sound like I'm on a high horse, I'm just a purist for a true restoration. Some of us old windbags like me still like it that way. To each his own. The most important thing is going out for a ride in our old cars and enjoying them. Good Luck with your repairs. Tom Huntersville, North Carolina 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) I bought an extra distributor for my car - used on ebay but in reasonable shape. Took it apart and put it back together again several times to familiarize myself with its functions. As a result, I have gained some knowledge, and an extra part for my car. Everyone is entitled to their own methods on their own cars. I have read the praises on the HEI Systems. I just wouldn't personally change mine out for that system. Nothing wrong with Chevy's, I've even owned a few in my day (64 and 72 models, even an 85). Truth is I'm a bit of an electrical ignoramus and don't understand those HEI Systems. If you knew someone monked up the springs in your Distributor, why not replace them only, and be proud of yourself for finding the culprit in short order? Not meaning to sound like I'm on a high horse, I'm just a purist for a true restoration. Some of us old windbags like me still like it that way. To each his own. The most important thing is going out for a ride in our old cars and enjoying them. Good Luck with your repairs. Tom Huntersville, North Carolina I see your point, but my car is no restoration in any way. I have a 12v car with front disk brakes and radial tires. Its been customized all over the place including removing all the trim, chopped and lowered. It's had lots done to it over the years. I appreciate the pristine restorations as much as anyone and the people who dedicate the time necessary to keep that part of automotive history alive and well. I have a good friend of mine who has a restored 48 Plymouth woody that is out of this world. I do not have that time, nor the money needed to bring this car anywhere near back to its original condition, so I am making things easier to drive and more dependable rather than period correct. The reason I changed over to the /6 is because of the results others on this forum and other mopar forums have had. It eliminates the points, internal dizzy wiring issues and produces a better result. There is a reason that they do not currently run points on new cars today, now that someone came up with a simple conversion there is no reason not to adopt it. Everyone who properly installed it, raved about the results. For me its no different than radial tires or disk brakes. As for the advance curve, I used the original shaft/weights/springs which would produce the exact same curve as my original dizzy did.. Unless you are doing a period perfect car restoration, why would anyone want to use outdated technology when there is better available... no matter which companies name is on the box. As for using the GM vs. Mopar electronics, it came down to the same thing again. People who had tried both or looked at both, including "mopar guys", leaned towards the GM system for several reasons. Nothing is necessarily wrong or deficient with the mopar parts, it was just that most of them felt GM had done a better job in this particular system. And from all the aftermarket systems that are made to go on just about any car, they also copied the GM design. The reasons are one, simplicity. Its about 1/2 the wiring needed as the Mopar and other systems. Less wiring means less that can go wrong. And two reliability, no ballast resistor to go bad. The HEI does not use an internal ballast resistor, it uses the full 12v and an internal electronic voltage regulator. Also there was a time period when a lot of the mopar boxes were going bad very quickly. Not sure why as I'm not a electronics person, but it was all over the place and you cant tell whether or not you are getting good parts or bad parts from the outside of the box. My car runs much better, it was easy to do and inexpensive and the parts are available everywhere if something were to ever happen. And I really do mean I appreciate the restored cars. every show I go to my favorite section is always the properly restored cars. I do appreciate and enjoy all the work those guys put into those things Edited July 18, 2013 by 1949windsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) about half the wiring???...minimum 4 wires with the HEI and is same as Mopar..for dependability...you be wise to mount GM module on a heat sink... (built into the Mopar module) and as the unit being hotter than Mopar..sorry but the module is just the trigger for the coil..secondary voltage output is a base function of the coils internal wiring in relationship primary/seconday What coil you using with your unit, as stated, the GM coils of the base '82 GM module application in this case used internal resistor coils...not slamming your choice, just questioning your reasoning and statements of simplicity. As this is not an attack on you or your choice and thus you need not defend your choices, but rather a dialog to help define the components you used for others to be also informed of these options. Internal resistor coil gets straight 12 volt wiring..it creates a very hot spark when cold for hotter spark same as bypassing the external with the Mopar coil when engaging the start function of the ignition switch. The GM coil as it gets this 12 volts applied heats up during operation and the heat sensitive resistor will start cutting back the applied 12 volts to internally regulate the applied volatage to the primary..while in electronic use this is not a critical function, in point systems using the inertial coil keeps higher voltage on the point longer for faster wear of the contacts. Further, this resistor is the very heart of the spark as the limited voltage is what ensure saturation of the coil primary and is different voltage/amperage for a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engine. Edited July 18, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark D Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I've done this with several items on my car - nothing better than hands on learning, and spare parts as a benefit! I bought an extra distributor for my car - used on ebay but in reasonable shape. Took it apart and put it back together again several times to familiarize myself with its functions. As a result, I have gained some knowledge, and an extra part for my car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 about half the wiring???...minimum 4 wires with the HEI and is same as Mopar..for dependability...you be wise to mount GM module on a heat sink... (built into the Mopar module) and as the unit being hotter than Mopar..sorry but the module is just the trigger for the coil..secondary voltage output is a base function of the coils internal wiring in relationship primary/seconday What coil you using with your unit, as stated, the GM coils of the base '82 GM module application in this case used internal resistor coils...not slamming your choice, just questioning your reasoning and statements of simplicity. As this is not an attack on you or your choice and thus you need not defend your choices, but rather a dialog to help define the components you used for others to be also informed of these options. Internal resistor coil gets straight 12 volt wiring..it creates a very hot spark when cold for hotter spark same as bypassing the external with the Mopar coil when engaging the start function of the ignition switch. The GM coil as it gets this 12 volts applied heats up during operation and the heat sensitive resistor will start cutting back the applied 12 volts to internally regulate the applied volatage to the primary..while in electronic use this is not a critical function, in point systems using the inertial coil keeps higher voltage on the point longer for faster wear of the contacts. Further, this resistor is the very heart of the spark as the limited voltage is what ensure saturation of the coil primary and is different voltage/amperage for a 4, 6 or 8 cylinder engine. Anything I can provide to help one way or another is all good for everyone I got a complete setup out of 96-00 GM vortec engine. Comes with module, coil, heatsink, mounting bracket, and wiring for $15 at a salvage pick your part yard. I grabbed out V8 setup for $10 an IC29 coil (not necessary but others recommended it so why not for $10) Went to NAPA and bought a TP-45 4 wire module(they didn't have any of the older 4 wire modules I could find at the salvage yard or I would have got one there) because the one that comes with the vortec engine set up is not a magnetic pickup but a hall effect so they are not compatible with the /6 dizzy. The hardest part (if there is one) was removing the old coil and replacing it it as it comes riveted to the bracket. That took about 15 minutes. The nice part is now I can put just about any coil on the bracket I want since it is now bolted together instead of riveted to the bracket. Wired it all up in about 10 minutes or so, re-gapped the plugs to .045 and it started first crank. This is a picture of the setup when you get it before you change it out the module. This is where I got the instructions and there is also a link on there for discussion about the results for more info" http://www.slantsix.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15779 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 18, 2013 Report Share Posted July 18, 2013 I want to thank you and say I appreciate you taking the initative toprovide the posted links, most on that site was also on the Allpars mopar pages.. and it is as I stated, higher coil output only based on the non oil immersed coil..these gained popularity in the 90 across the automotive field..and the input trigger for the module is from the early HEI ignitions and be it Mopar or GM it is still a selectromagnetic induced sighnal..ie...the HALL effect..but as the coil is not of the earlier generation Will admit that the resistor is not used as I was not aware you were referring to the solid state style coil modules..but was still thinking of oil immersed coils common to the era of the module reference in the original article.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) I want to thank you and say I appreciate you taking the initative toprovide the posted links, most on that site was also on the Allpars mopar pages.. and it is as I stated, higher coil output only based on the non oil immersed coil..these gained popularity in the 90 across the automotive field..and the input trigger for the module is from the early HEI ignitions and be it Mopar or GM it is still a selectromagnetic induced sighnal..ie...the HALL effect..but as the coil is not of the earlier generation Will admit that the resistor is not used as I was not aware you were referring to the solid state style coil modules..but was still thinking of oil immersed coils common to the era of the module reference in the original article.. Yes I got the dizzy idea and instructions of the /6 from here on our forum originally. Then after looking around I came across a whole bunch of additional info on the /6 forum I'm no automotive electrician by any means or even that much of a mechanic, but I am a tinkerer who is always looking to try and solve a problem with what seems to be the best info I can find. I thought the hall effect was the 5v thing they were talking about when they said they were not compatible... LOL I wasn't kidding when I said I'm no automotive electrician. I am working right now on a solution for the kickdown switch which I used for my 6v auto choke. I'll keep this posted in the next day or so when I know if it worked or not Edited July 19, 2013 by 1949windsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted July 19, 2013 Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 the 0-5 volt is TTL logic and is the product of the electronic engine controller and the cam/crank position sensors as they sync and then generate the spark..secondary is still through a coil..albeit these days dedicated mini coils per cylinder eliminating secondary high tension wiring that is subject to breakdown and ultimate failure..personally I love the new modern devices and apply them as I see fit in my builds.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1949windsor Posted July 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 19, 2013 Hmmmmm. mini coils on a flathead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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