squirebill Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Working on a B1B with 3 speed floor shift. Had the transmission out because it was seized. Freed it up and seemed the shift bars on the top cover were the problem. Was able to turn the input shaft and shift thru all gears. Truck had sat a number of years so I pulled the clutch assembly and the disc for inspection. All seemed OK so I reassembled. When I started the engine and tried to shift through the gears there was grinding getting into all gears. Seemed the clutch was not disengaging. Note that I did not have the drive shaft connected but was putting slight drag on the output shaft using the hand brake. When in neutral with the engine running could get the driveshaft yoke to stop rotating by applying the hand brake. In order for me to get the throw-out bearing to just contact the clutch release fingers, I am at the extreme end of the pedal adjustment. When the clutch pedal is depressed, the clutch fingers are only depressed maybe another 1/4 inch or so. Does this seem normal? I'm wondering/hoping that because I don't have the driveline tied in, that is why I'm getting the grinding shifts (stuff inside the transmission too free to spin and causing hard shifts). Any thoughts? I'm a newbie here so if this is already covered somewhere else in the forum let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm wondering if you got the clutch disc in backwards. The center hub is longer on one side, and if that side is to the flywheel it will bind up. This may be causing the clutch pressure plate to be compressed making the fingers further in, which makes for a longer throw for the throw-out bearing to reach the fingers. Also, if you were to move the clutch pressure plate further, the clutch disc hub may still be binding up against the flywheel. It will never fully release. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Merle, thanks for your very quick response. When I installed the clutch and disc, the side of the disc marked "Flywheel Side" was installed toward the flywheel. Checked it twice. I'm wondering if I have the correct throwout bearing assy. The distance from the face of the bearing (that would contact the clutch fingers) to the face of the ears (that would be contacted by the shift fork) is 1-3/8 inches. Seems like if this distance was longer, my problem would go away. Does anyone know if there is different throwout bearings for different size clutches? This clutch is 11 inch diameter. I think the standard B1B clutch is 10 inch. How about different throwout bearings of "fluid drive" vs. regular transmission? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) My parts book only shows one throw out bearing for all trucks through the 2-1/2 ton size. The bearing sleeve is different for the 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks than for 1 ton thru 2-1/2 ton, but other than that the only other bearing sleeve that would be different would be for the Truck-O-Matic trans that was an option in '53. Maybe you just need to adjust your pedal. Edited July 8, 2013 by Merle Coggins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 8, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Merle, please try to explain to me the difference you see between the sleeves of the 1/2, 3/4 ton trucks and the larger trucks. As I said, I have an 11 in. clutch and maybe it is for a larger truck that needs a different sleeve than I currently have. Does the sleeve for the larger truck look longer than the one for the 1/2,3/4 ton sleeve? Note that in my previous posts I was referring to the sleeve with the bearing mounted to it as the throwout bearing. Based on your post I now understand they should be referenced as two distinct items. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 It doesn't show any pictures of the differences, but 10" and 11" clutches were both offered for the light trucks unless you have a Fluid Drive, then they only got a 10" clutch. Did it act this same way before disassembly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John-T-53 Posted July 8, 2013 Report Share Posted July 8, 2013 Sounds like a pedal adjustment would be all that's needed, like Merle said. This is easy to do. I doubt the T/O bearing and sleeve are to blame from the info you have posted so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Wasn't able to check it before disassembly because couldn't get the engine with trans connected to turn at all using the flywheel. Clutch pedal could be pushed down and would come back up but couldn't shift any gears. If I remember right seemed to be locked in a gear (I think second) but definitely not neutral First I thought the engine was seized. Removed the trans and was able to turn the engine using the flywheel. Was able to get the engine running without the trans. Took the top cover off the trans and saw the shift bars were pretty well rusted. Freed them and was able to shift them using the shift lever. The transmission case was half filled with water and I could see the lower cluster gears were pretty well rusted. Disassembled the trans, got everything cleaned up, located and installed a used cluster gear, reassembled, lubed and buttoned it up. Was able to turn the input shaft and shift thru all gears using the shift lever. Seemed good to go. I initially had the pedal adjustment at the middle. Started engine and could get into all gears with grinding. Adjusted pedal all to one side i.e. the front jack screw is all the way in and the rear jack screw is all the way out. Started engine and once again, clashing gears. Pushing on clutch pedal seems to have little or no effect. Just for giggles, adjusted the pedal full the other way, no change. Note that this was all done with the drive shaft disconnected. Once again, removed the trans and clutch. Using a pry bar checked that each of the clutch fingers was free to move and return. Reistalled clutch and disc making sure disc was oriented properly (flywheel side towards flywheel). Slid throwout bearing and sleeve assembly into place and this brought me to my first post of the forum. Note further, I think I must have an after market throwout bearing and sleeve assembly. Looks like a sealed bearing where the inner race of the bearing is actually part of the sleeve rather than a separate bearing that is pressed on the sleeve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 So, if you have an oddball throw-out bearing, could it have rotated so that the fork arms are missing the sleeve pads? Here's a pic of mine from the last time I had the trans out to replace my clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Don't think so. Before I pulled the trans this last time, I looked up from the bottom with a flashlight and the shift forks were against the sleeve ears. All seemed good. Gotta say my bearing and sleeve look a lot like yours but maybe more of your bearing is visible around the outside of the sleeve housing. My retaining spring is a little stretched. Where did you get your new one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P15-D24 Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Wasn't able to check it before disassembly because couldn't get the engine with trans connected to turn at all using the flywheel. Clutch pedal could be pushed down and would come back up but couldn't shift any gears. If I remember right seemed to be locked in a gear (I think second) but definitely not neutral First I thought the engine was seized. Removed the trans and was able to turn the engine using the flywheel. Was able to get the engine running without the trans. Took the top cover off the trans and saw the shift bars were pretty well rusted. Freed them and was able to shift them using the shift lever. The transmission case was half filled with water and I could see the lower cluster gears were pretty well rusted. Disassembled the trans, got everything cleaned up, located and installed a used cluster gear, reassembled, lubed and buttoned it up. Was able to turn the input shaft and shift thru all gears using the shift lever. Seemed good to go. I initially had the pedal adjustment at the middle. Started engine and could get into all gears with grinding. Adjusted pedal all to one side i.e. the front jack screw is all the way in and the rear jack screw is all the way out. Started engine and once again, clashing gears. Pushing on clutch pedal seems to have little or no effect. Just for giggles, adjusted the pedal full the other way, no change. Note that this was all done with the drive shaft disconnected. Once again, removed the trans and clutch. Using a pry bar checked that each of the clutch fingers was free to move and return. Reistalled clutch and disc making sure disc was oriented properly (flywheel side towards flywheel). Slid throwout bearing and sleeve assembly into place and this brought me to my first post of the forum. Note further, I think I must have an after market throwout bearing and sleeve assembly. Looks like a sealed bearing where the inner race of the bearing is actually part of the sleeve rather than a separate bearing that is pressed on the sleeve. Are the two return springs both attached? (One for brake, one for clutch) They should be below the pivot shaft the brake and clutch pedal ride on the left hand side of the truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 The DT throwout sleeve and bearing assembly #581498 is the same for all dodge trucks-1/2 through 2-1/2 ton trucks except Fluid drive and 2-3/4 - 4 ton models.Fits 3, 4 and 5 speed transmissions. Same goes for the separate bearing #581499 fits all except Fluid drive and 2-3/4-4 ton models.. Pics of a 1-1/2 ton bell housing-B3HH and a B3B 4 speed TO bearing and sleeve. Also shown are the return springs as mentioned above to return pedals. Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P15-D24 Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 If the return spring is missing you will never get the clutch adjusted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBF Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Is there a keyway in the clutch pedal and/or adjustment assembly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desotodav Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 There is a keyway in the shaft that the clutch pedal assembly slides onto with a half-moon metal fitting that slides into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Clutch pedal return spring is attached. Brake pedal return spring is not attached. Brake pedal is in place. All other brake components: master cyl, wheel cyls, shoes,hoses, and hardlines have been removed to be replaced in near future,once I get the engine, transmission and rear axle operating properly. That's why I don't have the driveshaft hooked up. With no brakes, if I put it in gear and it starts to go, can't stop it except with hand brake. Guess will have to bight the bullet and tie the truck off to a tree and hook up the driveline. Bob, thanks for the information that all bearings and sleeves are same up to 2-1/2 ton except fluid drive. Would you happen to know the difference between the fluid drive bearing/sleeve and the regular bearing sleeve. Maybe I have a fluid drive bearing/sleeve assy.and it is causing me the hard shifts. Like I said earlier, my bearing/sleeve looks just like the photos posted so far. Thanks to all for all responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Will remove the pedal adjustment clevis to insure the woodruff key is there and not sheared....but not today...will advise. Thanks all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 9, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 Did get a chance to checkout the woodruff key today. It is there and in good shape, not offset or sheared. With all the information you folks have provided I think I'm convinced I have all the right parts for my application. Will just assemble it up again and also connect up the drive shaft and see if it shifts any differently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 My truck is a Fluid Drive version. I thought there was a difference with the FD throw-out sleeve, but according to my parts book it doesn't show a different one for FD trucks. Only for Truck-O-Matic trans. I found my replacement spring at the local True Value Hardware store. I went to the spring drawers and found one that was close to the original, which had a broken hook at one end. Merle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted July 9, 2013 Report Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) The diameter of the longer FD Truck-O-Matic bearing retainer is 1-1/2" versus the regular 3,4, and 5 speed bearing retainer which is 1-3/4" in diameter. Thus the different throwout bearing assembly, sleeve ect. Plain FD TO bearings are the same as a non FD truck as Merle stated. Bob Edited July 9, 2013 by Dodgeb4ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruffy49 Posted July 10, 2013 Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Does your bearing actually still turn? I've had them dry out and fail in other same era vehicles... looks fine, but it is frozen almost solid, puts a bind on the clutch fingers, throwout assembly and the transmission input shaft. Next to impossible to shift once the engine is running, shift into every gear pefectly when not running. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 10, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2013 Scruffy49...Thanks for your input. My throwout bearing is in pretty good shape...a little surface rust on the exterior but spins freely and quietly. Tomorrow I intend to reinstall clutch, trans, and drive shaft and see what happens. Will advise. Scruffy49...see you have a 49B1B. I'm not 100% sure if mine is a 1948 or a 1949. Would you happen to know how I could tell? Would it be by the serial number? Note, I do not have the original engine in the truck so if it depends on the engine number I guess I'm stooped. Any thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merle Coggins Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Go to this site and plug in your serial number http://www.t137.com/registry/help/decode.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 11, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Thanks again Merle....it's a 1949!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanksB3B Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 VPW sells the exact spring for like $5 Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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