B1B Keven Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Yay!!!!,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,another '49 B1B Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scruffy49 Posted July 11, 2013 Report Share Posted July 11, 2013 Mine is an early production like yours, floor shifted fromn the factory. Later production 49 had a column shifter 3 speed (gag) and a t-handle parking brake mounted under the dash. Haven't driven mine since 1994, last time I tried to start it (2008 or so) I heard a bunch of rings go tinkiling into the oil pan. I'm building a later 230 to stab into place, running the stock 3 speed and stomp starter, with the current 218's flywheel. Almost at the point of saying to heck with it and stabbing in the 318/727 out of my 69 D100. The 69 is in dire "need" of a big block swap... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Scruffy49, thanks for the information...I had seen references to early and late production 49's and wondered what that was all about...now I know. Pulled the clutch and disc out to inspect the thickness of the friction discs. My B1B series manual list them (new) as each being .133" thick. Mine measure .125" so good to go. After closer inspection of the disc to verify Merle's comment above that the center hub was longer on one side than the other thought I noticed the center hub was not "square" with the disc. Put it on a flat surface, made some measurements and sure enough the disc had a .164" wobble to it. By spinning it on my homemade clutch alignment shaft, knocking it this way and that, I was able to get it to spin "true" within .010-.015". Installed disc, clutch, throwout bearing, new return spring from True Value,transmission, and hand brake. Adjusted the clutch pedal free play...best I could get with adjustment all the way at one end is 3" free play at the pedal. With clutch depressed, engine not running, was able to shift trans into all gears. Started the engine with trans in neutral and clutch pedal up (at present have to remote start it from under the hood). With engine running and hand brake off, there was no rotation of the drive shaft yoke (Note the drive shaft is not connected). Depressed clutch and shifted to first with a little grind, same with 2nd, 3rd, and reverse. A grind in each one of the gears but not near as bad as my first post. Did notice the throwout bearing that seemed good when I spun it in my hand was making the "whishing" sound when the clutch was depressed at maybe 600 rpm. So, that's where I'm at right now. Seems the wobble in the disc was causing the disc to drag more than it is now but the 3" pedal free play is still a concern. Just seems like if I could depress the clutch farther than I can now, because the floor is in the way, it would release farther and all would be well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 There was another posting several years back about a warped disc. Glad you figgured out what was going on. Question is how did the disc get warped? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Don't know if yours has it or not but some pressure plates had adjustable fingers,- locknut and screw that would move the fingers in or out to equalize them. Pretty easy to warp a disc, letting trans hang on the disc without it fully in place, pulling it in that last bit when it doesn't want to go with the retaining bolts, fighting the trans out when the splines are rusted up a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Dave72dt....In my far off past had a 1950 Plymouth, called it" the Chariot", so have a Plymouth P15 to P25 manual that talks about adjusting the fingers on a Borg and Beck clutch in the "clutch" section of the manual. Uses a fixture "C-585". I sure don't have one of them. Does anyone know the basic principal of this fixture. Is it something that could be "mocked up" using a good flat surface and some "C" or "F' clamps?. I checked the clutch from the truck pretty close and saw the clutch finger eye bolt end and the adjusting nut. The nut was staked into the slot on the end of the eye bolt. Figured it was done during manufacture and intended to not be messed with. Anyhow, I have a 9' disc and pressure plate assy from who knows what to play around with. Maybe I can figure something out. Hate to pull that trans again but gotta do what ya gotta do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted July 12, 2013 Report Share Posted July 12, 2013 Easy way is with a spare flywheel and a fresh disc or something of the same thickness as a fresh disc. Pressure plate and disc are assembled to the flywheel and the finger height is measured and set to spec. I've used straight edges set on two of the fingers at a time and compared measurements at both ends to get them equal and then move the straight edge to the other finger and repeated and then double checked them again. Finger adjustment is a last resort type of fix and I really suspect something else is wrong especially with a partially worn disc which typically moves the finger toward the to brg. Check again and suspect everything. Something bent a little, on backwards, pivots or worn bushings. The pedal moves a long way for relatively little on the to brg end so it doesn't need much slop to make a big difference.. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 OK, not a mechanic, don't have a truck, just wandering around. Two things: don't know why you would want to adjust the (hopefully factory set) fingers on the pressure plate when there are other known issues present. Send clutch disc out, and get it redone. free play of 3"? Excuse the pun, but you could drive a truck though there Did you determine if the release bearing sleeve was shorter than it should be? Would that make the free play distance greater? Did someone change out some other parts? Incorrect clutch release fork rod? Could you build/fab a longer rod? If I'm out in left field, I will go sit in my corner now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 14, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 OK... I know I need a new throwout bearing...will order it Monday. Convinced from above posts with included photos that I have the correct throwout bearing and sleeve. Have checked clutch linkage and all seems to be good. Since have to remove trans to replace throwout bearing will take a bunch of measurements: pedal travel vs. throwout bearing travel, clutch finger travel between engaged and released., etc. When the trans is out will also drop the clutch and disc and try to mock up the fixture C-585 shown in my P15-P25 service manual. Since there is so much information in the manual on how to adjust clutch fingers I figure it was something the dealer mechanics did since they would be the ones who had the shop manuals. If I can't find the adjustment specs for the adjustment of the Borg and Beck clutch (haven't located them on the internet so far) will make a best guess using the measurements I took. That's the plan. If anyone has an 11 inch clutch in there 1/2 ton truck and would be willing to drop the clutch inspection cover for photos and or measurements I would like to hear from you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 OK, not a mechanic, don't have a truck, just wandering around. Two things: don't know why you would want to adjust the (hopefully factory set) fingers on the pressure plate when there are other known issues present. Send clutch disc out, and get it redone. free play of 3"? Excuse the pun, but you could drive a truck though there Did you determine if the release bearing sleeve was shorter than it should be? Would that make the free play distance greater? Did someone change out some other parts? Incorrect clutch release fork rod? Could you build/fab a longer rod? If I'm out in left field, I will go sit in my corner now. Finger adjustment is the LAST thing you would normally want to do and as I said earlier, I suspect something else to be the problem. They're also to be set with a new disc of proper thickness, not a used disc. The 3" of free play he's talking about isn't between the TO brg and fingers. It's the amount of pedal travel he's getting before contacting the fingers. If the floor boards are out, the reading will be high since the floor boards are the stop for the pedals. Not out in left field. Those are valid possibilities and why I said check everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_shel_ny Posted July 14, 2013 Report Share Posted July 14, 2013 . The 3" of free play he's talking about isn't between the TO brg and fingers. It's the amount of pedal travel he's getting before contacting the fingers. If the floor boards are out, the reading will be high since the floor boards are the stop for the pedals. I do understand the free play That's why I thought of the fork rod being the wrong one. It doesn't seem that if it were the correct one, that it could be so far out of adjustment that you could move the pedal 3" before contact Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 On cars the up travel "STOP" for the brake and clutch pedal is part of the pedal and master cylinder not the floor panel as seen in the picture below. Is this different on the trucks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 different on trucks. The floor is the stoip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 different on trucks. The floor is the stoip OK 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Here's my thinking: I think the only thing I have that may be out of spec is the 11 diameter clutch in a B1B. Doesn't seem as it is very common in a B1B but was standard on larger trucks. Maybe the finger setting is correct for the larger tonnage trucks but is not correct for the 1/2 ton B1B. So while I have it out will see if the adjusting nuts can be "unpeened" and all the adjusting nuts turned. If can do this will mock-up the fixture and use a proper thickness spacer to simulate a new disc. Will then adjust the fingers to a proper height to give me the 1" pedal free play. Once I get the new throwout bearing will install it all back into the truck and see how it works. If all OK will then rotate the flywheel by hand and peen the locknuts in place. If I can't get the locknuts "unpeened" and to turn will then go to the expense of sending it all as a core for replacement but if it is something I can get to work and avoid the expense then that leaves me $$$$ to spend on the other parts needed that I know will have to replaced (all brake cylinders, brake tubes, hoses , fittings, master cyl. kit, shoes and socks. Shel bizzy 48:Note that the truck does not have a clutch linkage rod/fork rod as found in the cars but rather the clutch pedal goes thru the floor and is connected to a jackshaft that has the throwout bearing forks on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave72dt Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 You're starting to talk about the possibility of mismatched parts. Find out exactly what's supposed to be there and exactly what you have. Before you unstake the nuts, mock it up first, even if you have to use your used disc. You can still check for uneven finger height. As the disc wears, the fingers will move TOWARD the TO brg so you should be able to get some correlation between them and the TO brg. If the dimension is less than it should be between the flywheel and fingers, there's an issue somewhere. There are wear points inside the pressure plate. At that point, send it in for a rebuild. If it's more than it should be and the fingers are even, leave it alone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desotodav Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 I checked the manual and it appears that you guys over there run a similar clutch pedal adjuster on your trucks as ours (see attached). You should be able to get some pedal adjustment from the 'collar 6-45-3' by adjusting the bolts on either side. Second attachment is a photo of mine - apologies for poor quality but it's in a hard to get at place to photograph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Thanks Desotodav it is very similar. My problem is with the adjustment all the way to on end I have about 3" of pedal free play before the throwout bearing contacts the clutch fingers. But taking a close look at the parts book page you attached I see some parts I don't recognize on my B1B. In the picture they look like they are between shift fork and the throwout bearing/sleeve and they are called out as "clip, washer, and screw" and all labeled as 6-20-17. Anybody with a US parts book show these items. Maybe that's what I'm missing because if it is somekind of clip that fastens to the forks or the ears of the sleeve, between the two, it could make up for the excessive distance I have between the face of the throwout bearing and the clutch fingers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Thats the return spring clip and screw. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1B Keven Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 My B1B has an 11" clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Dodgeb4ya....my set up is like the pictures you included on a previous post....looks like a stud coming down from the bell housing that the return spring hooks to and then the spring hooks into the hole on the throwout bearing sleeve. Am I missing something? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 B1B Keven....that's great to hear. Have you ever done a clutch replacement? Do you have any trouble with adjusting your clutch? About how much clutch pedal free-play do you have? Is it your daily driver or does it have a good amount of time just sitting. Would you be willing to drop your clutch insection pan and take some photos or just eyeball some measurements? Sure wish you were closer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1B Keven Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 LOL. It would be easier if I was closer. I replaced the clutch in the early '80's. Wasn't hard. I think I had a clutch disc alignment tool? The truck, until recently, has been sitting for 25 years. I'll try and get some pics for ya this week. I might even have another disc, throw out bearing and pressure plate laying around. EDIT: I do have extras, but they're 10". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirebill Posted July 15, 2013 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 Keven....that would be great. I'll be under my truck tomorrow morning...wait a minute, it's already tomorrow morning...i'll be under the truck when the sun comes up. Truck is on jack stands with tires just clearing ground and might be too low to get in and get photos but will try. Will definitely be able to take measurements of distances between the face of the throw bearing and the fingers of the pressure plate assembly. Do you have a B1 series shop manual? If so, does it look like there are washers between the shift forks and the throwout bearing sleeve in Fig.5 on page 90 showing a cross section of a typical 4 finger clutch (11,12,13 inch)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgeb4ya Posted July 15, 2013 Report Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) There is no spacer between the clutch fork shaft fingers and the bearing sleeve. I think a proper new disc and pressure plate and bearing will do you good. I would not mess with the clutch cover lock nuts and adjusting screws. Your parts are old and at this point I'd just replace them from a reliable rebuilder-"Tennesee Clutch" maybe. There is a remote possibility the flywheel is wrong or machined down way too much-possible but unlikely. There is a correct distance from the flywheel face to the face of the trans mount surface on the bell housing. What and how to get this OE distance is beyond me! Edited July 15, 2013 by Dodgeb4ya Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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