1949 Chrysler Windsor

[PatS....]

I think the 53 Firedome would be a FluidTorque drive from a V8 Hemi car so it's a bit different than the Non torque multiplying fluid coupling that came with the '49...stick with 49-52 and you should be good. Moores Auto will have the correct one: http://www.mooresautosalvage.com/parts.asp they are a bit pricey but they know their stuff. 

There are a few motor mount kits on the market to put Mopar or GM engines into the 49 frame, if you choose to go that route. 

I have a 49 Chrysler 4 door parts car with engine and trans which are for sale but still in the car but my health has gone to pot so I can't remove it myself anymore but I have a nephew who could do it and place it on a pallet for shipping. He would need to be paid for his time of course. I have never had it running and only know that it's not seized. $100 for both units. 

Most other parts from the 4 door are available as well.

Edited May 5, 2013 by PatS....

[Tim Keith]

That six isn't going to be hard to find. But likely will have to free it up.  Being in Kansas you probably could find a Massey Super 92 combine with the 265.  The 251 is fairly common.  I could get several of them here, just got to know where to look.   There was a Windsor with 251 in the local pick n pull.

[GlennCraven]

I think the 53 Firedome would be a FluidTorque drive from a V8 Hemi car so it's a bit different than the Non torque multiplying fluid coupling that came with the '49...stick with 49-52 and you should be good. Moores Auto will have the correct one: http://www.mooresautosalvage.com/parts.asp they are a bit pricey but they know their stuff. 

There are a few motor mount kits on the market to put Mopar or GM engines into the 49 frame, if you choose to go that route. 

I have a 49 Chrysler 4 door parts car with engine and trans which are for sale but still in the car but my health has gone to pot so I can't remove it myself anymore but I have a nephew who could do it and place it on a pallet for shipping. He would need to be paid for his time of course. I have never had it running and only know that it's not seized. $100 for both units. 

Most other parts from the 4 door are available as well.

 

I definitely came to the right place! Thanks to everybody for all the advice and parts offered so far.

 

I didn't have a chance to work anything out with the guy this weekend, but he does still have the car for sale. Perhaps the longer it sits without someone else buying it, the better the price might be for me. That could backfire of course if somebody suddenly shows up to buy.

 

On the later-model small block front, as noted, I saw advice on other boards warning away from a 318 (and others saying the 318 would be just fine). How bad would it be to go even smaller? ... There's a running 273 out of a supposedly 98,000-mile 1969 Plymouth Valiant on eBay for $150, ending in a few hours, and nobody's bidding. It could easily go unsold and be picked up about four hours from my house for that $150 as a private sale. It was backed by a 904 in the original Valiant and I've asked if the trans is also available, though it wasn't listed for sale at this time. He hasn't answered yet, but he answered quickly before so I should know soon.

 

Obviously a 273 is further away from making "big" power than a 318, but some of those little 273s were hot in their own right. Or could be made that way. And I sort of figure with about a 114-horse flat six being the original engine, a warmed-over 273 would be a big power upgrade anyway.

 

That stated, I do understand the 318 is more plentiful, as are parts for it, and it has some inherent advantages beyond cubic inches, like the ability to accept stock 360 parts that beef it up at lower cost than aftermarket.

 

Tim: I'll look around a bit for Massey combines, too. Being farm country, they may well be here, but it's also farm-implement-collector-country and some of that sells for ridiculous money. At least, for too much just to buy it for parts. It'd have to be a pretty trashed Massey 92 to be affordable for the engine, I'm afraid.

[Dave72dt]

I'd be interested in learning why a 318 shouldn't be used as a viable swap.  I fully understand the position of restorers retaining the original style drivetrain and opposing  swaps.

 

As far as finding a 92 Massey, good luck., even in farm country.  They've been obsolete for years and while a few might still be found and/or used, most have been scrapped out years ago.

[Plymouthy Adams]

same here Dave...the most popular small Mopar engine going with the best track history for dependability....if you go to some forums there are those that think it has to be a big block to be a Mopar..it is a challenged mentality and one that is very narrow minded...these folks think it has to build monster HP to be worth putting a battery to it to crank...farthest from the truth for an enjoyable daily driven car where touring about is the main objective..some folks shutter now at the very mention that the car I have just purchased will be downgraded from a 440 to a late model SMPFI small block with 4 speed auto...but it will be peppy and mild mannered at the same time with dependability and a thirst for fuel that is a bit easier to slake...it is all in what you want and how you go about your build...if writing a check..sure farm it out, let them have all the fun...but really, you may as well have bought it built to begin with..

[GlennCraven]

I'd be interested in learning why a 318 shouldn't be used as a viable swap. 

 

 

if you go to some forums there are those that think it has to be a big block to be a Mopar..it is a challenged mentality and one that is very narrow minded...these folks think it has to build monster HP to be worth putting a battery to it to crank...farthest from the truth for an enjoyable daily driven car where touring about is the main objective.

 

I think this answer to Dave's question pretty much sums it up. Some guys figure, "Why have a 318 when you can have a 360?" Which leads to "Why have a 360 when you can have a 383?" Or a 440? Or a 426 Hemi?

 

Eventually funding would probably be the only thing limiting their horsepower.

 

If I go the swap route instead of running a more stock flathead six, it'll be in order to have plenty of power to cruise and pass at highway speeds, to eventually run modern convenience options (namely Vintage Air) when the car is fully built-out, and to perhaps ease the parts search if I get in a jam, particularly when out on the road.

 

As I noted above, articles abound for building a 400-horse 318 for about $1,500, and for the way I would drive the car I can't imagine ever needing more than 400 horsepower. Really more than 275 to 300. Making 235 hp like the 273s in the Formula S Barracudas would probably not disappoint me.

 

BTW, the 904 trans was one of the parts the seller wanted when he bought the 1969 Valiant as a donor car. So it isn't available.

[Don Coatney]

I have owned several 318's in my life and found them to have ample power and be very dependable. And I did say very dependable. At my age dependabilty means much more than smoking tires at a go light.

[TodFitch]

. . . and to perhaps ease the parts search if I get in a jam, particularly when out on the road. . .

 

I can understand a lot of reasons for swapping out the engine but this is one that has always escaped me. All the parts that I would need for a repair on my original engine if I break down far from home are available, perhaps with a day wait, at any good auto supply. Any repair that is beyond that will mean getting the car home by means other than driving anyway.

[TodFitch]

I have owned several 318's in my life and found them to have ample power and be very dependable. And I did say very dependable. At my age dependabilty means much more than smoking tires at a go light.

 

Only experience I've had with 318's were in the '63 Plymouth I learned to drive on and the '63 D200 fitted with a '66 or so 318. When worn (the truck engine) I had the timing chain jump a cog which required pulling the front hub, etc. But neither car ever had the pan off for any reason during my tenure. I always considered that vintage 318 engine pretty bomb-proof and from what I've read by others it seems the whole line of various 318 versions was pretty solid.

[GlennCraven]

I have owned several 318's in my life and found them to have ample power and be very dependable. And I did say very dependable. At my age dependabilty means much more than smoking tires at a go light.

 

I feel the same, mostly. And I'm not an oldster; just 46. But my girlfriend, who drives a 2013 Mustang, ribs me for how slow I drive -- the speed limit, that is, or four or five over. ... When we go anywhere and she drives, she suggests I just take a nap and when I wake up we'll probably be there. 

 

I can understand a lot of reasons for swapping out the engine but this is one that has always escaped me. All the parts that I would need for a repair on my original engine if I break down far from home are available, perhaps with a day wait, at any good auto supply. Any repair that is beyond that will mean getting the car home by means other than driving anyway.

 

Well, I did say "perhaps ease." I've never had one of these flatheads. The advice here is that parts remain plentiful. I have no direct personal experience yet to confirm that. 

[knuckleharley]

So who is closer to right? 

 

Also, Harley, where in North Carolina do you reside? I moved back to Oklahoma/Kansas in 2011 after living in Henderson, N.C., since 1998.<<

The guy that pointed out that the old cast iron flatheads were heavier than a modern 318. I have no idea what the first guy was talking about when he said the 318 was bigger than the 360,unless he was thinking about the old "wide block" 318's. I have one in a 63 Plymouth Fury convertible I bought to save from the crusher (anybody looking for a 63 Fury convertible?),and it's a impressive chuck of cast iron.

 

I will admit to having never made a engine swap in a 49 Chyrsler Windsor,but I do have one sitting out in my yard,and it looks to me like there is plenty of room to do what you want to do. I have a 305 Chevy (soon to be a built 412) in my 48 Plymouth club coupe,and one of the things I feel like I have to do when I swap motors is recess the fireawall. The engine right now sits so close to the firewall that the distibutor almost rubs,and every bit of the engine heat just radiates back into the interior of the car in the summer,and that's with the engine so far forward I had to use a pusher fan. I stipped a 56 Ford F-100 pu a few years ago,and cut the recessed firwall out of it for future engine swaps. That's what I'm going to use in my P-15.

 

Lots of people like and use the rack and pinion steering,and it is superior to the old steering box you have now. That doesn't mean their is anything wrong or dangerous about the original steering and front suspension in your car. If you aren't out there playing Boy Racer,your stock front suspension will work just fine and there is no need to spend all that money and do all that work unless you want to.

 

As for the brake situation,I strongly recommend replacing all the steel lines and the brake hoses,and installing a dual-outlet master cylinder for safety. Today's reality is that it is now cheaper and easier to switch over to front disc brakes than it is to stick with the drum brakes if you have to buy new drums Disc brakes have gotten cheaper,and drum brakes have gotten more expensive. Even worse,if you do mange to find new drums,chances are they were cast in China.

 

I think it it were me,I think I'd look into one of those under the floor booster and master cylinder kits. That Chrysler of yours isn't what anybody would call a lightweight,and replacement parts aren't easy to find or cheap if you run into something.

 

BTW,I  live out near Kitty Hawk.

Edited May 13, 2013 by knuckleharley

[GlennCraven]

More good advice, thanks! If this project comes to pass I won't screw with the steering or front suspension.

 

It does seem like you're agreeing a recessed firewall makes sense. That's probably no small piece of cutting and welding.

 

With an available parts car with working driveline at a reasonable price still in South Dakota (from this message board, provided he hasn't sold or crushed it) the very easiest thing would be to stay as stock as possible, with exceptions for things that are easier, more affordable and safer if made modern, like the disc brakes you mention.

 

I still have in the back of my mind a double-project scheme, since I've noticed not just this WIndsor that's still for sale, but a cheaper 1949 DeSoto coupe someone's having trouble selling. The DeSoto has already been mangled a little (subframed for Chevy, wrong model-year of doors?). Though it seems to be getting ahead of myself, I'm considering getting the pair and working on the Windsor first because it's cleaner and the mostly stock configuration would be less confusing and demanding for a first project. Then when I've learned a little something, I could try tackling the DeSoto with a non-stock drivetrain and make it much more of a rod or custom vehicle. It's cheap enough now that if I can swing it, the best thing for the car would be to get it indoors even if it is going to sit for two or three or four years until something can be done with it.

 

Oh, and the Outer Banks are fantastic. While living in North Carolina we took a couple of vacations there, staying up around Corolla and Duck. That whole 200-mile stretch is a spectacular strip of American history and geography.

 

Finally, three cheers for saving the Fury convertible from the crusher!

[JerseyHarold]

Glenn,

 

I recall seeing an ad recently for a green '49 DeSoto 2-door and the ad said that the doors are from a '51-2 car and could be 're-worked' for proper contour.  Is this the car you've found?  If so, you should know that the '49-'50 doors have a different front edge than the '51-2 and re-working is really not an option.

 

Harold

[GlennCraven]

That's the car, Harold. It's a couple of hours away from me and I'm hoping to go see it. The car has been eBayed repeatedly over the last several weeks without selling.

 

I didn't figure on using the wrong doors, though they do seem to have them ON the car anyway. But I appreciate your warning because it confirms what I was only guessing about before -- pretty definitive incompatibility.

 

Especially if this went down according to plan, that car would sit off to the side while the Windsor gets the attention. That would give me time (years, perhaps) to try and trade or sell the doors it has for correct doors. ... Although a quick search has suggested they don't exactly grow on trees.

[GlennCraven]

Strike all that. Somebody apparently finally bought the DeSoto. Current auction canceled.

[knuckleharley]

It does seem like you're agreeing a recessed firewall makes sense. That's probably no small piece of cutting and welding.

 

Oh, and the Outer Banks are fantastic. While living in North Carolina we took a couple of vacations there, staying up around Corolla and Duck. That whole 200-mile stretch is a spectacular strip of American history and geography.

 

Finally, three cheers for saving the Fury convertible from the crusher!

Yes,and no on the recessed firewall being necessary. It is necessary if you are putting a SBC into a P-15 Plymouth,but I doubt it is necessary if you are putting a 318 into a 49 Chrysler. Lots more room under that Chrysler hood.

 

Actually,my family is from Duck. I escaped from there in 1964 by enlisting in the army on my 17th birthday.

 

I've been to Coffeyfille,Kansas,too. I broke down outside Coffeyville while moving to Colorado to attend gunsmith school back in 1976. A real nice guy running a gas station by the main interestate ramp to town that was into 30's Chevrolets helped me out by swapping rear ends out of another Pontiac into my car by working half the night and had it ready for me to leave the next morning. I left my small toolbox as collateral because I was almost broke,and went back about 2 months later and paid him what I owed him and picked up my tool box.

 

He even took me to that "sporty" hotel in town so I could take a shower and get some sleep while he was working on the Pontiac. Offered to take me bird hunting if I ever wanted to come back to visit,but working a full time job and going to school nights meant I had no time for anything.

 

As for the Fury convertible,I sure wish somebody would save it from my yard.

Edited May 14, 2013 by knuckleharley

[BobT-47P15]

I can't recall if the transmission crossmember has to be relocated if changing from a Chrysler to a Plymouth engine/trans,,,,,,,I'm sure

someone can address that question.       Chrysler and DeSoto had the longer blocks.......Plymouth and Dodge the shorter ones.

 

Dodge also had the Fluid Drive - along with Chry & DeS.......but Plymouth never had it.  Just as background info.

 

I would keep looking on Kansas City craigslist for one place.  Old MoPar stuff crops up there from time to time.          

 

Maybe Tulsa and Oklahoma City also.  

 

Check the parts for sale listings for those models on the HAMB as well......those guys are always removing old original

motors to drop in a small block Chevy, or some such.     

 

I'm not sure that Victory Six the guy mentioned is a workable deal.....its several years older than your car.

[48Dodger]

late 60's to mid 70's 318's have pistons that are well below the block deck. KB-167 slugs fix that. 318's were designed around low end torque, not speed. Most 360's from the same era were designed much like 318's, for torque, except mostly for trucks. So the 360's could actually be less powerful (HP), but more "torquey". Later 360's (5.9) had better heads (the Magnum Heads) and can be swapped to the early 318's along with the 273 forged crank, but stock heads and crank(cast) are good too. Believe it or not, the cop cruizers used 318 4bbl engines for that low torque/handling. 383 and 440 engines are tough on handling, which is why  they live a wonderful life as Drag motors and RV pullers. I have a 477ci for my 68 R/T.....a 408ci stroker for my 50 PH land speed racer...and a 366ci for my circle track 72 Charger (street stock div)

 

The reason I think most shy away from stock 318's is because 360s are easier to upgrade. if you're not upgrading, then you may not notice the difference between the two unless your pulling something. In that case, a 318 is cheaper to start with.

 

My suggestion is to go with a 230 L6 dual carb with either a T-5 or 904 trans. Why? Cuz there is a ton of guys here who can explain as you go. If you pick something that no one has done before....you're playing what I call "beat the engineers"....the guys who got paid big money to engineer cars that worked. The shake downs have been done, mistakes delt with and articles written about the formentioned suggestion. Kinda makes for a good start. 

 

By putting in a L6, you have the benefit of a strong torquey motor without having to reinvent your steering, cooling, suspension, or wiring. 

This is of course all free advice to be discounted as needed. lol.

I don't spend a bunch of time on the car side, but enjoy seeing what everyone's building.

 

DC..."a lumpy cam"....I keep seeing this statement. What is your Cam Spec? Wotz the grind, dude? How tall are ya standing?

 

48D    

Edited May 14, 2013 by 48dodger

[Don Coatney]

My suggestion is to go with a 230 L6 dual carb with either a T-5 or 904 trans.

 

Remember he has a Crashler and they have the 25" block not the shorter 23" block so a 251/265 would be a direct bolt in.

 

DC..."a lumpy cam"....I keep seeing this statement. What is your Cam Spec? Wotz the grind, dude? How tall are ya standing?

 

48D 

   

My regrind profile is 260 degrees duration for both intake and exhaust @.410 lift. Makes for a slight lope at idle.

 

[48Dodger]

48dodger  said:

 

"My suggestion is to go with a 230 L6 dual carb with either a T-5 or 904 trans."

 

Don Coatney  said:

 

"Remember he has a Crashler and they have the 25" block not the shorter 23" block so a 251/265 would be a direct bolt in."

 

See??.....this is why I should stay on the truck side.....

I just lernt something, and with limited space in my head, I probably will forget my birthday now.

 

48D

[Don Coatney]

 with limited space in my head, I probably will forget my birthday now.

 

48D

 

For the first time in a couple years I did remember my anniversary. 31 years today. As Lisa is in Indiana grandmothering I sent her a big box of chocolates so the grandkids can all share. I will take her out when I get there a week from today.

[Jim Yergin]

Congratulations Don. That is quite an accomplishment these days.

Jim Yergin

[James_Douglas]

I drive a 5000 pound '47 Desoto all over the West Coast.  A strong built but stock 251.  Stock carb.  Stock exhaust.  I use the fluid drive with a 3-speed stick and Borg-Warner Overdrive.  In a lighter car this combination takes off nice. In the 5000 pounder it is leisurely.

 

One thing to take a note of.  Did the car come ORIGINALLY with a fluid drive or a standard three speed?  The transmission mount is in a different place, riveted and welded to the side rails, if a stock standard 3-speed was in the car and further back if fluid drive. 

 

James

[GlennCraven]

Let me just start this installment by saying I love you guys and this place!

 

 

Yes and no on the recessed firewall being necessary. It is necessary if you are putting a SBC into a P-15 Plymouth, but I doubt it is necessary if you are putting a 318 into a 49 Chrysler. Lots more room under that Chrysler hood.

 

I've been to Coffeyfille,Kansas,too. I broke down outside Coffeyville while moving to Colorado to attend gunsmith school back in 1976. A real nice guy running a gas station by the main interestate ramp to town that was into 30's Chevrolets helped me out by swapping rear ends out of another Pontiac into my car by working half the night and had it ready for me to leave the next morning. I left my small toolbox as collateral because I was almost broke,and went back about 2 months later and paid him what I owed him and picked up my tool box.

 

As for the Fury convertible, I sure wish somebody would save it from my yard.

 

Thanks for clarification on the firewall situation. Certainly makes a 318 Mopar solution sound easier than a Chevy swap like the seller suggests!

 

What a great Coffeyville story, and probably not all that uncommon a tale. Kansas is full of friendly folks. The whole world is, I suppose, if you're lucky enough to run across them.

 

When my family moved to North Carolina years ago, my wife (now ex) and my kids had car trouble near the Illinois-Indiana line. They stayed in a motel near Grayville, Ill., and there isn't much else in Grayville. They were stuck for five days, but it ended up being a wonderful experience. Once they ordered delivery from Pizza Hut and when they went down to the front desk to pick up their order, they found that the motel staff had paid the bill; bought them dinner. It was Christmas break, and on Christmas morning the wife and kids were called down to the desk, where the motel staff had bought candy and gifts for my son and daughter.

 

The local mechanic decided the engine was junk in my wife's 1986 VW Cabriolet. My family chipped in to put a new engine in the car. Probably wasn't worth it, but they wanted to do it and the car had been a gift and was meaningful to her at the time. The Grayville mechanic towed the car to the VW dealer in Evansville, Ind., and dropped my family at a car rental place so they could drive on to North Carolina.

 

Obviously I've never forgotten all that kindness.

 

As for the Fury convertible ... do you have pictures? LOL! 

 

 

I would keep looking on Kansas City craigslist for one place.  Old MoPar stuff crops up there from time to time.          

 

Maybe Tulsa and Oklahoma City also.  

 

Check the parts for sale listings for those models on the HAMB as well......those guys are always removing old original

motors to drop in a small block Chevy, or some such.     

 

I'm not sure that Victory Six the guy mentioned is a workable deal.....its several years older than your car.

 

Yeah, I check Craigslist daily. For fun if nothing else. It might be hard to beat the $300 parts car deal from this board, even with the 18-hour round trip. Most of the L6s I run across are priced around $1,000 and a lot of them don't run; this seller says his does, and fairly well.

 

The Victory Six I mentioned in case anyone else was interested. I didn't presume it was workable here. But it's pretty cool to know it's out there. ... He never called back, though, so I assume his friend decided not to sell.

 

 

The reason I think most shy away from stock 318's is because 360s are easier to upgrade. if you're not upgrading, then you may not notice the difference between the two unless your pulling something. In that case, a 318 is cheaper to start with.

 

My suggestion is to go with a 230 L6 dual carb with either a T-5 or 904 trans. ...

 

By putting in a L6, you have the benefit of a strong torquey motor without having to reinvent your steering, cooling, suspension, or wiring. 

 

Great advice, and there's much to be said for not reinventing the steering, cooling, suspension and wiring.

 

If I do go with a swap, a 318 probably makes the most sense, though there's still a $150, running 273 for sale on eBay that's a day-trip away from me if I want to buy it.

 

 

I drive a 5000 pound '47 Desoto all over the West Coast.  A strong built but stock 251.  Stock carb.  Stock exhaust.  I use the fluid drive with a 3-speed stick and Borg-Warner Overdrive.  In a lighter car this combination takes off nice. In the 5000 pounder it is leisurely.

 

One thing to take a note of.  Did the car come ORIGINALLY with a fluid drive or a standard three speed?  The transmission mount is in a different place, riveted and welded to the side rails, if a stock standard 3-speed was in the car and further back if fluid drive. 

 

James

 

Car must be originally a Fluid Drive. I assume so, at least, without being under it yet. "Fluid Drive" is printed in the chrome surrounding the rear license plate.

 

A question about a transmission swap (even if the engine stays a flat six) ... if I go with a 904, can I still use the stock column-shift lever? It's part of the instrument/controls design and it all looks so great together.

[48Dodger]

Here's a link to a good thread about 273 vs. 318/360.....

 

48D