bamfordsgarage Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 (edited) Hello all — Tomorrow I grab the tools and begin the overhaul of my 1947 Dodge D25 engine. I've rebuilt several engines over the years, but never a Mopar product. In fact, the only one I've seen apart was Joe Flanagan's Plymouth engine last October. I'm going to need help from you guys and I'm confident I'll get it — so, many thanks in advance for all your good information and suggestions. For this first post I'm going to outline my starting point and intentions and we'll go from there... History: This is the original engine and as far as I know has never been out or overhauled. There are about 90,000 miles on the car. Last April we broke a chunk out of the #2 piston and top ring — picked out the pieces, bolted it back together, and have driven 2,000+ miles since. Current Condition: The engine runs quiet and smooth but lacks power and burns most of a quart of oil every 300-400 miles. The balance leaks out the front and rear seals. Compression test, engine warm, spark plugs out, throttle open: (Cylinder #, Dry, Wet) #1 94 121 #2 92 112 #3 89 107 #4 83 97 #5 85 102 #6 45 84 From this I deduce the rings are generally worn and there is a leaky valve in #6 and possibly #4. Oil Pressure, coolant at 190F: 600 rpm 15 psi 2000 rpm 35 psi 3000 rpm 42 psi From this I deduce the bearings are somehat worn and ought to be replaced. Manifold Vacumn, engine warm, elevation 2,100 ft above sea level 600 rpm 13.5-14.5 inches, needle quivering 2000 rpm 16.2 inches 3000 rpm 16.6 inches I understand these readings should have 1” added for every 1,000 ft above sea level. Fast idle readings below 19 inches (equivalent to 17” at my elevation) indicate leaky valves. Quarter Mile Performance, really really dodgy timing equipment: 49.7 mph, 28 second ET Known engine problems to address: Oil burning (rings), Low compression (rings, valves), Leaking front and rear main seals, Low oil pressure (bearings), Occasional overheating (water distribution tube, clean out passages). Known other problems to address at same time: Throwout bearing, Steering wheel play 3”, Grabby rear brake, Winter tires needed, Clean and flush radiator, Possible bad rear motor mount. Timeframe: Start tomorrow, complete in two months, shakedown cruise to Lethbridge AB for Feb 11, drive the Ice Road to Tuktoyaktuk in the Canadian Arctic in late March. Budget: Whatever’s required to get the job done right. Cosmetics: Doing this work in the first place pains me greatly as I quite enjoy bragging at gas stations etc. that not only is the engine original to the car, but it has probably never even been apart. That has to change, but at least I can keep the original look — I’ll get the worst of the grime off the exterior, but will not clean paint or detail the engine, accessories or engine compartment. Performance Upgrades: There are many appealing options, but I have decided to keep things basically original — beyond a proper overhaul and a 0.060 head shave the engine will remain stock. I really enjoy the Vintage Motoring Experience, and much of the appeal is in driving cars that have their original power and performance. Besides, with the amount of wear in my engine, a rebuild back to original should make for a very nice boost in power! If everything is OK with the crank and rods, I will reuse them, probably with the set of 0.030 pistons kindly offered to me by PatS in Calgary. If there is a big problem with my crank, I may go with the bigger 265 engine internals also generously offered to me by PatS. We’ll have to see. Pictures: Left and right-hand views of engine compartment, spark plugs removed yesterday for compression test. Edited December 4, 2011 by bamfordsgarage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randroid Posted December 4, 2011 Report Share Posted December 4, 2011 Chris, From my vantage point in a warm house and with clean hands I wish you the smoothest of rebuilds with no hidden surprises. Have fun! -Randy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 5, 2011 Report Share Posted December 5, 2011 Right on time. I believe you said you would start on December 5 and that's tomorrow. I am really looking forward to this thread as I may have a possible rebuild ahead on my '53. Your posts are always lengthy, but the kind of lengthy everyone likes as they are so full of great information. Please keep us updated with as much information as you can spare time for. Good luck with the rebuild!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Flanagan Posted December 6, 2011 Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Chris, I think I might have some literature on rebuilding flatheads which I'll send if you want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted December 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2011 Thanks Joe, I would appreciate that. I think you have my snail mail in a previous PM, otherwise I'll give it to you. My rebuild got off to a slow start yesterday — last week I thought I would place an advert in a local club newsletter in a bid to cull the collection a bit and create some more space. Much to my surprise, an acquaintance from another club called yesterday AM to ask if there was any truth to the rumour my 1937 Morris Eight might be available... the rumour was true and much of the day was consumed with examination, test driving, getting a bank draft and dressing him up for the 25 mile drive home. Sad to see it go, but, on reflection, I would not buy it back today for the money he offered, so we're both happy. Today I built "elevators" for my new car dollies and officially took the Dodge off the road. The car dollies lift the front wheels car high enough to get under on my creeper (15" clearance) and push the car out of the way so Lady Michelle can park comfortably in her new stall. She suffers from PSA (Parking Space Anxiety) and likes all the elbow room she can get. Pictures: Your reporter and the new owner in the official "Cheesy handshake photo"; Bye-Bye Mr. Morris; New dollies and the front wheel elevators — I see they are reversible to provide an additional 1.5" of height if needed; Dodge officially off the road 'till the rebuild is completew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You planning to pull the dog house??? If not you want a load leveler for you hoist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 what's that funny looking white stuff on the ground...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Greg, not sure what you mean by dog house... front sheet metal? If so, no. Hood, radiator, batteries and accessories, then engine and transmission as a unit. I want to leave as much of the car together as possible. I plan to use this garage-sale lifting accessory (photo below). Tim, that's just white sand. There is so much here on our beaches, the city sprinkles it around the neighborhoods to keep down the weeds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Yes front sheet metal. Pulling the engine and trans as a unit requires a very acute angle to get the oil pan to clear coming out the front. You really do need the load leveler to achieve the angles needed. Plus you need a really long boom extension. And as another consideration the car may need to be a bit higher in order for the trans to swing through the arc necessary to get the proper angle. Really the assembly needs to be at nearly an 80 degree angle. Some of them are too flimsy for the job also remember you are pulling 700 plus pounds. When I pulled mine, I seperated and because I did not have the boom extended far enough, I had to lower the car and let the air out of the tires to get enough height on the engine. Don't want you to run into unescessary problems or delays. Edited December 7, 2011 by greg g Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Greg is right. You'd be much better off to pull the trans from underneath. If you do that you should be ok without the leveler. We did mine that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertKB Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Chris, I too would recommend pulling the transmission from underneath before pulling the engine. I have done this on a parts car and the engine was very easy to get out without the tranny attached after removing hood and radiator of course. Still have the engine which is looking for a suitable project vehicle or is a great spare for my cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aero3113 Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Greg is right. You'd be much better off to pull the trans from underneath. If you do that you should be ok without the leveler. We did mine that way. Same here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Engine first, transmission later. Thank you Greg, Ed, Robert, Aero. Much appreciated. Today is a renovation day and car club tonight. Back on the Dodge tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941Rick Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 how much work is involved in removing the front sheet metal.....on the 41 it took 1 hour and there is a ton of room after.....not sure on newer cars.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greg g Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I beleive here are about a dozen bolts to loosen and wiring then the fender inner and outer, grill support and radiator bracket then all comes out of a piece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted December 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I will have a closer look at removing the doghouse before going further, but my reluctance to remove sheet metal is mainly philosophical — looking to get this job done with the least possible disruption to the original car. And I'm not going to be detailing/painting the engine compartment. Thanks, as always, for your comments and suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 Doing it with the front clip is no big deal. I would however plan on removing the hood. Take your time make sure everything is unhooked and have a buddy or two to help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 You guys need to remember that Chris is dealing with a long block. Installing a long block in a Plymouth body makes for a lot tighter fit than a small block. I removed and re-installed my hood with no help. Only help I got was after I removed the hood. I ask my trusty dog where to store it and he said "roof-roof" so that is where I put it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Elder Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I will have a closer look at removing the doghouse before going further, but my reluctance to remove sheet metal is mainly philosophical — looking to get this job done with the least possible disruption to the original car. And I'm not going to be detailing/painting the engine compartment. Thanks, as always, for your comments and suggestions. Then pop off the hood, and take out the radiator......and strip the front of your block bare naked! Then you should have plenty of room lol, to squeeze it out sans tranny without removing the doghouse... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyHarold Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 When the bell housing is out of the car, get two long bolts that screw into the trans mounting holes, cut the heads off them, and use as alignment pegs to make it easier to reinstall the transmission. I've put them in at diagonal corners (upper right and lower left), then install two attaching bolts, then back out the pegs one at a time and replace with bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 7, 2011 Report Share Posted December 7, 2011 I drilled out the four rivets in the cross bar on the radiator support bracket that the horns mount on after removing the radiator which allowed me to pull the engine with the dog house on the second time I removed the engine, still had to let the air out of the front tires. I used a cherry picker and an adjustable load leveler pulling device, cherry pickers have a limited lifting height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted December 8, 2011 Report Share Posted December 8, 2011 When the bell housing is out of the car, get two long bolts that screw into the trans mounting holes, cut the heads off them, and use as alignment pegs to make it easier to reinstall the transmission. I've put them in at diagonal corners (upper right and lower left), then install two attaching bolts, then back out the pegs one at a time and replace with bolts. Great advice-cut slots in them too so you can remove them with a screwdriver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bamfordsgarage Posted December 9, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Not too much progress yet — dang house renos still getting in the way. Jerry popped over and we removed the hood, radiator and some accessories. It wouldn't surprise me if this rad has never been out of the car. I'll drop it off at a local old-car-friendly rad shop for cleaning and inspection. James, good suggestion about the rad support bracket rivets... I don't really want to remove the whole thing, just the horn bar. JerseyH — will do. Don, I asked Pancho the cat about where to store the hood and engine accessories and he agreed with your dog. Roof! Roof! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 I've done a few of these and never had to remove that horn bar or the radiator mount in general. They designed it to come out with that stuff intact. Is your radiator U 2in further forward for the longer engine or do you have a different radiator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted December 9, 2011 Report Share Posted December 9, 2011 Ya I'm sure it does say that. But I've done it at least 4 times without. Including pulling and replacing the engine in Dads freshly restored 51 plymouth convertible after the engine died at 172 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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