Plymouthy Adams Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) In your picture of the left side looking up my angles are opposite of yours...where..the front lower a-arm pivot mounting hole is close to the steering and the rear mounting hole is about an extra inch away from the steering link...opposite of your posted picture..I have no clearance issues at all... the angle of your picture could be misleading..I have no reference in the shot to centerline Edited December 25, 2009 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 25, 2009 Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) Posting a few pictures..this is left side of my car.... picture one, camera is parallel to imagined straight axle and level with the lower A arm..left tire as viewed from the front picture two is slightly above center of the lower A arm, still parallel to the imaginary axle and despicts well the angle of the lower upright bolt to angle inboard toward car's centerline at the rear picture three..again car wheels straight ahead...tire shows this line as we view down on the assembly, the angle of the lower A arm and offset of the upright is apparant....again the lower upright bolt at rear is inboard toward centerline of car.. picture four shows the opening at max angle of tire engaging in extreme left turn as viewed from the front... picture five is the wheel engaged in max left turn showing well the again the angle toward cneterline and the gap betwen the steering link and the lower A arm also note that the bend in the steering links do not come into play in realtionship to the lower A-arm/upright mounting point... again, your picture does not really show a good shot of the A-arm..but is your spring platform facing the road or is it facing skyward? Edited December 25, 2009 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted December 25, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 25, 2009 (edited) In my pics both spindles are turned to show them hitting the A arm. They are not straight. This means the left side pic is shown turned all the way to the left to show hitting the A arm and the right side pic is shown turned all the way to the right to show hitting the A arm One thing (probably pretty important) I have not completely installed the front end correctly. I have only done mockup and not completely assembled the front end like i would for the last time. I think i may be putting the cart before the horse alittle bit. I need to install the front end 100% like i would if i was gonna drive it tomorrow and then see just how far off i am. I think i may be closer than i think. I just thought it look like the spindle should turn farther than this Let me do the final assembly and I will see what i come up with. Should be close. Gonna have to give me some time. The holiday screw me up from working on her. Edited December 26, 2009 by tankwilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 (edited) Tank I have checked my 48 P-15 with stock uprights and disc brakes and at full travel the arms swing below and across the end of the A frame. The centerline of the arm is under and almost inline with the centerline of the hole in the trunnion bolt that holds the zerk fitting. The top of the arm is very close to the bottom of the boss on the outboard end of the A frame. Since the dropped uprights are only dropped 2 1/2" this causes an interference between the bottom of the steering arm and the top of the boss on the outboard end of the A frame. I think the only solution to the problem is to make new steering arms that will clear the boss on the A frame or live with a reduced turning radius which I find unacceptable. It is hard enough to get into a straight in 90 degree parking space with the stock steering never mind limited travel requiring you to back up and them pull forward two are more times to get into the space, and forget about backing in. Edited December 29, 2009 by james curl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt.Fred Posted December 29, 2009 Report Share Posted December 29, 2009 tank, i think it is the best to completely assemble everything first and then have another look, like you already said. there might be other problems you cannot figure out now. i guess the turning radius might be very limited anyway, for example depending on the size of the rims and tires you're using. i did a mock up on my 40 sedan for only 2" lowering and found out that i could not keep my 16" wheels then because i wouldn't make any inner city turns afterwards because of the wheel well radius... but i'll do it anyway and see where i can go from there. i hope you can solve your problems and i follow this thread with great interest! frederic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted December 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 (edited) Well guys i have been emailing Fatman and they have been very helpfull. Kind of suprising since i bought my upright used off this board and not directly from them. Brent sent me a set of instructions just to make sure i am on the right track. I noticed that my countersink holes aren't quit deep enough so i ordered a bit. When it gets here i will get my hole deeper and machine my allen head bolts to fit. After all that is done i am going to put the front end back together for the last time. It has been so long, i have forgotten how much travel the stock steering has so i went out to my parts car and turned the wheel and took a pic for future reference. After looking at the pic i dont think i am off as much as i thought. Doesn't appear to have alot of steering travel as i thought. Everything i have done so far has been in mock up and not everything has been done. Edited December 30, 2009 by tankwilson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Tank, jack it up then after puting a jack stand under the frame crawl under and see where the steering arm is in relation to the end of the A frame. Remember that you are running disc brakes and the adapter spaces the steering arms 3/8" closer to the A frame to begin with. Mine with stock uprights and disc brakes swings under the end of the A frame to the point that the trunnion bolt head center is directly over the center line of the steering arm at full travel where it comes under the bolt head. I can see no way to get full travel without some fancy rework of the stock arms or to just make new arms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 as I had mention earlier to Tank, it may have been in the form of a PM but the installation of the Cavalier (TRW) style R&P limits the turn of the car..the steering stops are just shy of touching...I think this is also why they say centering the rack between the frame rails is so critical..this ensures equal left/right turn angles.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I do not know about Tank but I am not planning on going to R&P steering. I am not going to change my original steering wheel and column. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 I have allintentions of keeping my 47 plain and simple and try not to go overboard on upgrades and such on the inside..I think my first plan of attack is to keep the original wheel and coulmn and modify it for connecting to the R&P. The car is scheduled for a 318/A500 or 904 dependending on what I can get my hands on first..of course the R&P. shock relocation, disc brakes and so on...all that stuff is already on hand... now if I can just hold the line in the sand...lol the 41 has all this stuff and all the creature comforts one can imagine..well..I did not put electric rear view mirror or heated seats... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Ah! but you have the Dakota clip on the 47. If mine was clipped that way then I also would use R&P steering since it is part of the package. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 no the Dakota clip is only on the 52 Club coupe and the 51 Suburban wagon..the 41 is using the original setup modified with all the available upgrades...as is the 41 Dodge..the Dakota is by far the best for quick install and geometrically correct suspension but the rest of the mods to set the body, establish the original bumper back into place..set the doghouse and such is a bit more involved..but after doing two of these..it is not that bad as ihave worked out all the little kinks and know just what to do and what to do it with..I have the engines pretty well represented, 3.9 Mag. V6, 318, 360 P.I. and a 383...the fun is in the fixin' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted December 30, 2009 Report Share Posted December 30, 2009 Are you running Fatman dropped uprights? If so how did you do your steering arms to clear the ends of the A frames? If your rack does not have enough travel then the car will be a pain to drive in tight places, parking lots at big box stores, motels, restaurants, apartment complexs, you get the idea. I live on a narrow 2 land curbed street and have to turn into a narrow 12' driveway, so I would always have to come from the direction where I could turn to the left and use both lanes. I find that unacceptable, I have to have as much travel as the original steering has just to drive my car around town. I live in the old section of our town and almost all of the streets are narrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 3, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2010 Hope you all had a great holiday season. Got to work on the plymouth a little bit new years day. Installed the ECI dual master cylinder bracket. Just a note... if you order it for a 49 plymouth with a 3 speed manual trans you DON'T need the one with the clutch mount. I had to cut mine off. Here are a coupe of pics of the bracket and linkage installed. Very nice setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 15, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2010 Well gonna give it another try this weekend. I have my spindles all setup and ready to bolt on. Also have my air bags modified somewhat. Hope to bolt everything and cross my fingers that nothing hits. Will give you an update this weekend. stay tuned..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 OK guys got to work on the plymouth today. I installed everything per the instructions. I think i am gonna make it work. I had to grind a little bit here and there but i am close. Question. Guys with the dropped uprights and guys with stock..... How many turns on the steering wheel do you get when turning from center to the left and center to the right? I unhooked the tierods, found center of the wheel and proceeded to check the number of turns in the steering box. I can get 2.5 turns from center to one side. When i hook everthing back up i get 1.75 turns when turning to the left and 1.5 turns when turning to the right. Solution for now is the countersink my front steering arm bolts alittle more and see if i can get both sides the same. I mounted up the wheels and i am really close to having the same turning radius as my parts car pictured above. I will work on it some more tomorrow and see what i get. Also i will have to reset my steering stops on the spindles so that they hit the stops on the uprights and not the steering arms hitting the upright or lower a arm. Does this sound right? Also will probably have to cut some off my tie rods to shorten them to make the toe right. Thats it for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) When you install Disc brakes using Old Daddys or PlyDo's kit which both are 3/8" steel plate between the spindle and the steering arms you must readjust both tie rods by shortening them 3/8" each. Edited January 17, 2010 by james curl spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 the turns of the wheel will not be equal to that of the stock as the gear ratio is different than the rack gear..this is what makes R&P desireable, the quicker no slop steer...the travel is not quite the same..just a tad less...your best guage for turn radius without a turn table installed uner the wheels will be to check the built in steering stops.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
james curl Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 Tim, do you know something that I do not know? I have seen no mention of Tank going to R&P steering. In his pictures I can see the stock tie rods in the foreground of his pictures, also he mentioned that he will have to re-set his stops to get them to hit the boss on the uprights. If you have to reset the stops, then you will have either more or less travel in the deflection of the wheels from straight ahead. In the case of Tank changing his it would be to lengthen the stop bolt to contact the stop boss sooner to limit the amount of pressure applied to the lower trunion bearing in the a frame when the steering arm is being forced to try to ride over the end of the A frame because the steering wheel still has more travel avilable before the stop bolt on the spindle contacts the stop boss on the upright. I believe that you could apply considerable pressure to the steering arm, A frame interference with a 14:1 steering box ratio and a large steering wheel thus putting additional pressure on the lower trunion bearing. The set up that I bought from a member of the H.A.M.B. has the same problem that Tank has and the botton trunion bearing on both sides have unexceptable wear in them and will have to be replaced. My set up came from a running, driving car that later received a Fatman front clip. The steering arms on mine were already heated and bent when I received them. I have contacted Fatman and he thinks that the 3/8" the arms are moved in by the disc brake adapter might be the problem, in which case he suggested going to an ECI setup or a Scarebird setup which both place the adapter for the disc brakes on the wheel side of the spindle moving the arms to their original position therefore allowing more turning travel of the wheels and allowing the stops to hit before the steering arms hit the A frames. I already have too much invested to start over with ECI or Scarebird and will heat and re-bend my steering arms to clear the top of the A frames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 17, 2010 Report Share Posted January 17, 2010 (edited) My mistake, I keep thinking he has the R&P, most do both mods....regardless of stock or R&P steering the location of the steering arm position is the same..so is a moot point at this time..so we are back to the interferrence of the lower A arm ears... in going back to the Fatman drops and Plydo brakes...my setup has plenty of gap...these are three inch drop spindles..inside mounted brake adapter and can place a pencil between the steering arm and the lower a-arm ear at max turn..the max thickness of the sterring is 1 inch and smoothed plus the allens are a full counter sink to flush of the steeering arm...these are the basic variables.. Edited January 17, 2010 by Tim Adams Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Yes i am running stock steering. You know i am starting to wonder if the uprights we have are different dropped. I think mine are 2.5" drop. If they were 3" then i wouldn't have any issues because everything would be higher and would clear. Worked on the ol girl today. I think I have my steering good enough for now. I did notice that when turning to the right my stock steering stop makes contact with the upright and keeps everthing from hitting (only after some grinding). When i turn to the left (same 1.5 or so turns on the steering wheel) the stock steering stop is probably 3/8 of an inch away from the upright stop. ?????? Why is this????? Can anyone tell me from center how many turns do you get from your steering wheel when turning to the right and from center to the left. I need to know from someone with a stock setup and a dropped setup. I think i have mine close enough for now to drive it this spring and see what happens. Does fatman make more than one dropped arms for our cars? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 yes they do...I do have the 3 inch drop and therein may be the difference..you may have to go with the other brake setup just have the extra clearance at the lower a-arm..this will make it a bit more costly as you will have to back up on the brakes.. It is quite odd that the 2 1/2 drops may have this problem as they (fatman) makes reference to using the Plydo brakes with their uprights in the tech article.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 I'm not sure if they make different dropped uprights or not. In your pics Tim your steering arm is about the same postion as mine far as height away from the lower mount. I have an email to Fatman to see if they do sell different drops. Tim how many turns of the steering whee do you get from center to the right and center to the left. I am at somewhere between 1.5 and 1.75 turns now. Let me know. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 18, 2010 Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 my steering is 1 1/2 turns from center to each steering stop..for a 3 turn lock to lock of the steering wheel..I do not have any turntables to tell you the angle.. My steering arms are above the lower a-arm ears with about 1/4 inch between the bottom of the steering arm and the top of the a-arm ear..my brakes are also sandwiched between the steering arms and the spindle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tankwilson Posted January 18, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2010 Cool. U running the stock steering box or R&P? If your running the stock box then i am right on the money with my car. Thanks matt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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