Looks like the end...

[BobT-47P15]

Another thought......I wonder if there are any hotrod guys on the HAMB

who live near Robert. Many of those fellows are good guys (despite some

of the bad language used there).....and often seem willing to help out a

fellow old car person.

But, Robert or someone he designates, would have to start the ball

rolling there. I would be willing to do that if he wants me to, but

would need to confer with him for additional info....via P M.

[Norm's Coupe]

Another thought......I wonder if there are any hotrod guys on the HAMB

who live near Robert. Many of those fellows are good guys (despite some

of the bad language used there).....and often seem willing to help out a

fellow old car person.

But, Robert or someone he designates, would have to start the ball

rolling there. I would be willing to do that if he wants me to, but

would need to confer with him for additional info....via P M.

Bob,

That's also a good idea. I was in a similar position myself back in early 1964. Was stationed at Ft. Knox, KY at the time. We all know Uncle Sam didn't pay much then and lived off post in Louisville, about 30 miles one way away. Didn't have the money to buy another car, or get this one fixed real fast since I also owed money on the 57 Ford. But.........I had to be at the office everyday or else I'd be in big trouble. A friend at the hospital (We both were assigned to the hospital at the time for work) had two cars. A 56 Buick convertible and a newer VW wagon. Was really surprised by this guy. When he heard of my problem he loaned me his newer VW wagon to drive, without me saying a word to him. Drove it for a couple of weeks, then his wife wanted it back because she didn't like driving the Buick. So.........he then took the VW back and loaned me the 56 Buick. I think I used his car for about 6 weeks or so before getting the money and parts together to replace the engine in my 57 Ford. So........you never know, someone might even do something like that. I really didn't know this guy very well before this happened to me.

[Normspeed]

Good analysis Norm. I know Robert (and Jenny) and he truly loves his P15. Not all car buffs like to do their own wrenching but it doesn't mean they don't love their vehicles. What Robert could use is a good, honest, competent, reasonably priced mechanic that really understands the old stuff. Problem is, I moved. But then, that description doesn't fit enough folks in the business. Not putting down his mech, but a really good one is hard to find, especially at reasonable rates.

It's hard to believe that his valves failed so quickly. Robert doesn't run his car hard and is very mindful of odd noises, gauge readings, etc. I do recall a recent episode when his throttle stuck wide open and it achieved some very high revs for a few moments. Maybe a valve stuck in the open position, or whatever. If I were there I would start with a good listen, an inspection of each spark plug, a compression check, a vacuum check, and then maybe short out plug wires one by one to track down the bad cylinders. Where I would go next depends on those quick tests.

The winter car idea is also good. I believe that if you own a car you really like, and it's pretty much paid for, never give it up or you'll be kicking yourself later. But really, can you see this guy tooling down the boulevard in a thrashed hundai?

Guys' date=' I think we're all missing Robert's point here.

[/quote']

[dezeldoc]

I am an hour or less from him and have extended my hand and shop to him in my first post, but I have not heard anything from him.

Norm, out here in cali we don't have any "rust buckets" out here and it is hard to find any car that has any kind of reliabilty for less than a grand.

[Plymouthy Adams]

back in mid 2007 you stated having had a valve job done on the car..then in June this year the head gasket was blown between 5 and 6..in September a new head gasket was put on by you and I assume your trusted mechanic and noted that at that time number 4 cylinder had a burnt valve but yet you put on the gasket and continued to run on five...then the question of the tires..the move to an 8 volt battery for your 6 volt system..Robert, I know times are somewhat tough and putting x-money into repair can put a dent in your wallet...but if done right the first time you would be actually saving money down the road..between the labor, gaskets and your time...I think a proper repair approach is in order...a proper done valve job would not have gone bad in a year..no way...when doing a vavle job you must ensure the vlave is capable of being ground with enough shoulder on the head to prevent burning..when you resurface a valve you are cutting into the margin of safety and setting the valve deeper into the seat..the length of the valve grows in this procedure also..not so bad a deal on these old mehcanical tappets but if hydraulic..you are faced with a grind to length issue. Refacing seats on these engines are best done with the replacable sandpaper surfacers and not the tool steel cutters. Your guides in doing this procedure must also be in pristine condition to prevent egging of the seat..

If your engine is in good condition which can probably be detected by comparing the comprerssion in the remaining good cylinders..thena proper done valve job with new valves (especially the exhaust) could very well get you a lot of usefulness from this engine and truly the cost will be repaid many times over in dependable operation of your car.

[Norm's Coupe]

But really, can you see this guy tooling down the boulevard in a thrashed hundai?

Norm, if that's what it takes to get from point A to point B while fixing his P15, "Yes". I'd do it myself if I were in the same position. We gotta do what we gotta do.

Also, since he lives in sunny California there's also the Moped or small motorcycle or scooter.

[Captain Neon]

I've gotta agree w/ Tim on this one. If one relies on one car to get them around, then it is foolish to go to the trouble of replacing a head gasket and not repairing what one finds upon pulling the head off. Preventive maintenance is always money well-spent.

I also have to agree w/ Norm that it may be foolish to rely on a single antique automobile for daily transportation for the simple difficulty in getting parts in a timely manner. I love my P15, and I have been known to drive her a lot. However, when she is getting work done I have other cars to drive. I don't buy new cars and prefer to have a stable of older vehicles for various purposes. When something breaks, I'm not stuck without transportation because I've always got something else.

While my wife doesn't like to drive my Jeep, she has been thankful to have it available when her Acclaim has been laid-up. Carrying a lot of groceries or a few gallons of paint can be difficult to impossible on a bicycle.

My P15 is reliable, but it is a reliable toy. I also usually have something that needs attention every spring. I can't imagine increasing that frequency, and relying on my P15 to get me around. It took almost a month to get my tranny rebuilt and installed this spring. I can't imagine what the consequences and struggles I would have had were I to rely on my P15.

Shortcuts will never work out in the long run. A temporary repair to get home or to the repair shop is one thing, but expecting it to last as a long-term solution is flirting w/ disaster.

My dad often says, "I drive Fords and MoPars because I'm not a good mechanic. Only a good mechanic can keep a GM running." If one is not an ace mechanic it is a ticking timebomb to rely on an antique automobile to be one's sole transportation. They worked great in the '50s, but there were parts readily available any where. That is no longer the case, and sometimes it may take days before a necessary and proper part can be located, then there is the wait for shipping, and finally the extra time it takes to install older less familiar technology. One of the reasons a dealership can fix newer cars so rapidly and with consistency is that they see the same problems on a regular basis. As "Hawkeye" Pierce said in M*A*S*H, "We're really not better doctors than you, but by shear repetition, we've gotten fast."

[Robert Smith]

Foolish eh? Well, so I'm a fool for driving an antique car daily... what of it?

I have had enough of buying pieces of **** used cars to have them take a dive on me only to cost more to fix then they're worth, no thanks! If I had the cash to buy a second car, and the cash to insure it, I'd invest the money in getting my P-15 back in top working order.

I didn't have the time or the means to have the #4 valve fixed when I took the head off. I would have had to have the car towed to another shop to have the valve fixed, and that would have cost me more then I had. So, I opted to have it put back together and run on 5 cylenders till I had the time and money to have it all fixed. That was my choice, maybe not what someone else would have done but I had to have a car to get to work.

My choice in owning and operating an antique car is purely due to the style in which I live also, I love them. I love the past, I feel things were made better then, and I feel this P-15 has been the best car I’ve ever owned. Times are really tough right now with the economy and until I have the extra cash to get a second car, I have to put the money in to this one.

I know it sounds weird that a motor that had a valve job could be going bad this soon… but, I’m experiencing low horsepower, I can’t travel at a steady speed as I have been able to do, my mechanic doesn’t do work on flat heads so I have to find someone else to do it and that isn’t easy. Most of the mechanics I have taken the car to all say that I need a valve job or a rebuild. I tell them that I had a valve job done not that long ago and they all say that these cars driving regular will need a valve job more often. That could be right or that could be to the fact they want to fix my car get take my money. Not sure.

=R

[RobertKB]

Robert, you have had an offer of help from a forum member (dezeldoc) close to you. I would take him up on his offer and at least find out what the problem really is. I know you love your old P15 but it sounds like she is hurting and you want to fix it, not put her down. Take help when it is offered. I admire you for driving your P15 daily but if you do that you need to keep her well maintained. It will still likely cost you less than buying a second car and if you leave things the way they are you are only going to damage you motor further. My two cents worth for what they are worth and they may not even be worth that.

[Robert Smith]

Robert, you have had an offer of help from a forum member (dezeldoc) close to you. I would take him up on his offer and at least find out what the problem really is. I know you love your old P15 but it sounds like she is hurting and you want to fix it, not put her down. Take help when it is offered. I admire you for driving your P15 daily but if you do that you need to keep her well maintained. It will still likely cost you less than buying a second car and if you leave things the way they are you are only going to damage you motor further. My two cents worth for what they are worth and they may not even be worth that.

I over looked his offer the first time, I sent dezeldoc a message. He replied and I'll be talking with him tomorrow.

I gree with you, I'd love to be able to keep my car or any car running in top shape, it's just really hard right now... some times I don't even have the money to pay my bills on time. I work for the City of LA in the department of Parks and Rec... well, they're cutting things way back in that department and everyone is having hard times.

Thanks to all who offer their help and advice, it is appreciated.

[JerseyHarold]

While you're working on the motor, it might pay to check the heat riser for being stuck and the exhaust system for being clogged. Those items could contribute to your engine running poorly.

[Lou Earle]

... sure.and they all say that these cars driving regular will need a valve job more often. That could be right or that could be to the fact they want to fix my car get take my money. Not

If they say that I am sure they know nothing about plymouth flatheads!!!

These engines have from the factory hardened valve seats so they do not need valve seat inserts as say ford flatheads do.

It really sounds to me like someone is taking u for a sucker.

Please try all the suggestions here they will not disable yoru car but u might find the actual problem. I know of no mechanic who would put a head back on with a burned valve left in - find another mechanic!!!

[old woolie]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

[RobertKB]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

I find that a little harsh. I can't service my new car so does that mean I shouldn't own it. Same thing. I have several friends in the car club I belong to who love old cars but don't know much mechanically. They are willing to pay to have the work done and that is their choice.

[PatS....]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

A bit harsh. The vast majority of posts here are maintenance/repair questions. Nobody knows everything about these cars so what better place to ask and learn?

I had a '49 Chrysler as a DD way back when and while I didn't know a whole lot about it when I got it, I knew it inside out when it went to it's maker a few years later.

In his position I wouldn't hesitate to use an old Mopar as a DD again BUT not in our harsh winter. Spring, summer, fall? You bet.

You just have to find a shop who knows these things and who doesn't think you should scrap the old heap.

I asked the counter guy at the local Ma and Pa parts store if there was anyone around who was doing repairs on the side in their garage and was hooked up with an old timer trying to keep busy. Worked out well. He's gone now but you might try that.

Good luck!! Don't give up, and think outside the box for creative solutions.

[rolliejoe]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

How many of us don't understand women but still go at it? The learning curve has to start somewhere.

[dirty dan]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

I don't know how to repair my HD LCD television. Think I need to send it back?

[Frank Elder]

I don't know how to mend clothes, but I ain't a gonna quit wearin' em!

[BobT-47P15]

I've had my 47 Plymouth since 1973 and have learned quite a bit about it,

especially after joining this forum.

However, I'm still not much of a mechanic.

If I had a problem with valves or something related, I would either take the

car to a mechanic (assuming you can find one today who wants to mess

with the old cars) (and, on top of that, who knows what he's doing)---or

I would get someone I know to come over and help.

I'm fortunate that I know a guy who works in a local restoration shop and

makes mechanic house calls. He installed the engine in the convert several

years ago in my driveway.....his work has held up well.

Therefore, I'm in about the same boat as Robert when it comes to doing

certain types of work on my car. I do have a late model car, so do not

depend on the Plymouth as a daily driver. But I understand where he's

coming from.

[dezeldoc]

If I think back I am pretty sure their was not a person born that did not have to learn. he may not know a lot about them but he is giving it his all with what he has, and if you have never been down his road, you would not know where he is comming from trying to keep it running with little or no money. it is a lot cheaper and easier to keep it going than a late model computer controled car.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Not to add flameage but in defense to some degree..I think some of the so called harsh statements sometime made here are only after the fact that many worthwhile easy and important test are suggested yet the owner seems to keep going on an Easter egg hunt looking for the magic egg instead of using proper troubleshooting techniques and solid mechanical principles being applied. It is not that everyone knows every thing..and troubleshooting from a keyboard can only get answers based on the the listed input of the asker...and the asker of the questions must be capable of taking that information and putting it to use...even the old timers can sometimes overcomplicate an issue and have to be reminded by possiblily a silly stupid question of what if..just to put him back on track...

As for not doing the work yourself, I know there are many that cannot do the work and as many more than WILL not do the work and are quite content in paying others. This is enterprise..makes the world go around for sure..and it is a shame there are shops out there that do prey on the unknowing, the elderly and single women etc..hope they have a miserable life for sure..if someone has to farm out or even choose to farm out work..it is well advised to be well versed so as to know what is done is done right and at a fair price to all. I must quote my own self here, One must know how something works in order to get it to work. This is the learning curve....but the key word is learn and we learn by listening to others..two eyes and two ears..one mouth..basically saying in the absence of knowledge..it is twice as important to see and hear than to speak...

And to further my point at this moment..there is still no compression test results posted etc etc..this is not exxpensive or labor intensive yet will speak volumes in general engine condition...

So with dezeldoc lending a hand..maybe it best this thread rest till maybe he either fixes it or has input test data to this post..

[BobT-47P15]

Amen.

[old woolie]

Not to add flameage but in defense to some degree..I think some of the so called harsh statements sometime made here are only after the fact that many worthwhile easy and important test are suggested yet the owner seems to keep going on an Easter egg hunt looking for the magic egg instead of using proper troubleshooting techniques and solid mechanical principles being applied. It is not that everyone knows every thing..and troubleshooting from a keyboard can only get answers based on the the listed input of the asker...and the asker of the questions must be capable of taking that information and putting it to use...even the old timers can sometimes overcomplicate an issue and have to be reminded by possiblily a silly stupid question of what if..just to put him back on track...

As for not doing the work yourself, I know there are many that cannot do the work and as many more than WILL not do the work and are quite content in paying others. This is enterprise..makes the world go around for sure..and it is a shame there are shops out there that do prey on the unknowing, the elderly and single women etc..hope they have a miserable life for sure..if someone has to farm out or even choose to farm out work..it is well advised to be well versed so as to know what is done is done right and at a fair price to all. I must quote my own self here, One must know how something works in order to get it to work. This is the learning curve....but the key word is learn and we learn by listening to others..two eyes and two ears..one mouth..basically saying in the absence of knowledge..it is twice as important to see and hear than to speak...

And to further my point at this moment..there is still no compression test results posted etc etc..this is not exxpensive or labor intensive yet will speak volumes in general engine condition...

So with dezeldoc lending a hand..maybe it best this thread rest till maybe he either fixes it or has input test data to this post..

I've never been shy about speaking my mind and will continue to do so,but quite often it gets me in trouble,usually by speaking too fast and with not enough words. What Tim Adams say's in his post is the gist of what I was trying to say. He did it so much better. Sorry.

[dezeldoc]

no problem!!

[Robert Smith]

Okay. This is my opinion and belief. No insult or flaming intended.

If you don't know how to maintain or service these cars,you have no business owning them.

Oh yeah? No insult or flaming intended huh? Well, I don' think I care for that much, understand? Why don't watch what ya say ya big gas bag! I ain't hurtin' no one! If you wanna know what I think, I think you're just a bitter ol' car nut that's spent too much time in the garage around the exhaust pipe, get me?

Geez, some people... SHEESH! What do ya want me to do? Just forget my love for this car and sell it? Would that make you happy?

And FYI, I have had many compression tests on this old flat 6... and it shows that the first two are low... and #4 is dead and the last three are right. That's what I had before this got worse. And for the record, I do some mild work of my own in my driveway... I haven't a garage and I changed out the starter and regulator, generator and a few other things right in my own driveway... I'm still learning about the care of these cars... so, give me a break!