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3046moparcoupe

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3046moparcoupe last won the day on October 24 2017

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About 3046moparcoupe

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    Senior Member, have way too much spare time on my hands

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  • Gender
    Male
  • Location
    Hurst
  • Interests
    Music/Guitar and Old Cars / Streetrods
  • My Project Cars
    1930 Plymouth Model-U 3 Window Coupe, and 1946 P15 Plymouth Special Deluxe 2 Door Coupe

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  • Biography
    60 yr old OCD / Old Car Disease
  • Occupation
    retiree

Converted

  • Location
    Hurst Tx
  • Interests
    Vintage Mopar, guitars

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  1. WAGONER aftermarket WT243-8A 3 speed countershaft gear

    That's kinda why I'm thinking about using the old original cluster gear, instead of this newer Wagoner aftermarket. In my mind, stuff like that oil groove and lip, and having the gear balanced,....the things that Wagoner didn't do,..maybe that's why, these original mopars had a good reputation and history ?? like your describing,.....that's exactly why I'm asking here, ...don't wanna spend money trying to use the better part, and do all the good I can, while I'm in this thing (sharper edged looking gear teeth, no physical signs of wear at all, etc ).... but end up actually shooting myself in the foot, and overall downgrading the quality of the tranny - by doing so. thxs dpollo, Steve
  2. WAGONER aftermarket WT243-8A 3 speed countershaft gear

    Trying to due my part in researching this,.......multiple sellers on ebay offering the Wagoner WT243-8A countershaft gear,......none of the auction pictures had good enough pics to see the inner bore, so I wrote the sellers asking about it,......all came back saying the bore was completely smooth like the one I have..... One seller, who strictly sold vintage gears told me, that the countershaft gear I had was NOT an original Mopar part, the he had an original In the box. and that it had a smooth bore just like the Wagoner. Recommended I use the Wagoner, that it was a closer design to the original, and all should be good.....had me feeling positive about this for a few minutes - (as it seemed he had nothing to gain as he wasn't trying to sell me his Wagoner part),....then about an hour later - I found an ebay seller, with a 100% positive rating, that had a countershaft gear up for auction, listed as an original Mopar 697823, (just like what my P15 parts book shows to be correct), and he had some really good pictures you could zoom in on... Well, low and behold - the one he had for sell,. looks exactly like my old one,....it has the 4ea drilling holes in the flat bottom surface of the large end gear (balance holes I would think). They are the same size and in the same location as on the gear I have,.....also on that same flat surface area on his gear, you can see the dpcd logo stamped into the gear, (that's something mine doesn't have however, mine has the letters E L X D stamped into it ?? (You can see it in the pics above I attached to the original post), don't suppose anyone out there might know what that stands for ??....also when you zoom in on the end shot of the gear, where you can see down the bore, the groove and lip is there....just like the gear that came out of my tranny...?? This seller also had a Chryco box, with the part number 697823 displayed on it, not that a box really confirms anything,.... I politely wrote the vintage gear seller back, thanking him for his time and effort, and tried to again "politely" nudge him towards what I had just found that day also on ebay, as described in the previous paragraph,...asked if his oem gear had a part # stamped on it anywhere ? or possible the dpcd logo ? ? ( he wrote me three separate messages the day before, but not a word back yet regarding this now. !!! ) I just keep telling myself, the old adage "if this we're easy - everyone would do it" and try to keep moving forward... Steve
  3. WAGONER aftermarket WT243-8A 3 speed countershaft gear

    thanks dpollo and austinsailor,....Yes, when I watched the Master tech Video's, I picked up on the arbor trick (where old Dutch showed the younger guy to use the tool to hold the needle bearings in place in the countershaft gear),...I happened to mention it to one of the forum members in a conversation, and he told me that 3/4" oak dowel from the hardware store would work perfectly,...(so I've got 2ea slightly different in length already made up and ready to go),...yes Austin Sailor, even Dutch on the Master video recommended using heavy grease to hold the needle bearings into the main pinion shaft, until you could get the retainer clip in place......but I think even he thought it was too much of a juggling act to try and just use the grease alone without the arbor, when your also having to deal with that spacer shaft being in there as well, he (Dutch (did say to put some oil on the bearings to hold them in place, if I remember correctly he said Use some oil, there's not enough room for grease)...anyway - all this was good advice, I appreciate you guys sending it my way......had I not already known it would have been gold to me,....so I appreciate the thought and effort from you both. Dpollo, regarding the modern lubricant comment, my understanding is that I have got to stay with GL1, or I'll have problems with the modern stuff attacking the bronze synchronizers and thrust washers,...so I don't' know if modern GL1 is superior to what they had back then, (which was also rated as GL-1),.....It's possible I suppose,....?? I get all bogged up on this stuff, due to lack of real world experience,..drive's the more experienced senior guys here on the forum,..NuTz ...which sure isn't my intent, we're (the good ole USA) loosing folks who have knowledge like this,...folks who can actually make something, and do more than just push a button and read what pops up.... It's not a contest in perfection and I'm not trying to build a " nothing but oem parts ", type car.....I just don't wanna make the wrong decision and use the wrong part, that could cause my grief later..... I know I've got issues with having to feel like I did my absolute best ,(due-diligence) , on everything....I just can't sleep and night unless I feel I truly did. My employers always loved it,..but I guess they we're about the only ones. Maybe George Asche would be good to ask about this,...seems like I've read he has a lot of experience with these transmissions....cause if I'm thinking correctly on this, and I believe I am, that countershaft is always turning,....it never stops,.. no matter what gear, including neutral...seems like a good place to do the right thing, and choose the correct part, if it might make a difference,....maybe not - I know what I need, a giant Mopar crystal ball Steve
  4. WAGONER aftermarket WT243-8A 3 speed countershaft gear

    dpollo, YES - I do have the spacer tube shown on the drawing I attached to this reply (its shown as part #83) and I also attached a pic of it to this reply along with the xmn diagram drwg. It's a smidge over 4 1/2 inches long...and came out with the needle bearings. What i was originally questioning is in addition to the part #83 spacer. It's actually the way the bore of the original Mopar countershaft gear is cut, in comparison to the way the bore on the wagoner is cut.... HOWEVER,...I've got to fess up here, on my original post I was making a BIG error going from my memory only,.....I was thinking that the part #83 spacer shown in the drwg and the attached picture was longer. That it ran the entire length of the bore of the countershaft gear, and that without that additional short inner lip I was seeing up inside the mopar countershaft gear, that the needle bearings would travel and move,....however - now that your reply back - had me go look through my parts at this spacer tube again, I see that it's shorter length serves to not only fill the space between the bore of the countershaft gear and the shaft itself, but it also does serve as a spacer to keep the needle bearings from walking. Oldtimers disease I guess, I apologise - I should have double checked myself, I was sure that the part #83 spacer ran the full length of the countershaft gear bore....I suppose I'll learn the embarrassing way - to go check myself before I start crying wolf - huh ? BUT, after seeing this, and my mistake here,...I went back and double/triple, checked myself,..with my snap gauges and calipers,.....and the bore on the original mopar gear truly does downsize by .0010 ", so there is an additional ridge inside the bore for the bearings to ride on, and there is also "as you can see in the original post pictures" an additional deep groove on each end of this ridge that's about 3/16 inch wide, (gotta be an oil groove to hold oil right where the ends of the needle bearings contact the spacer tube ?)....anyway - none of that's present on the aftermarket Wagoner countershaft gear. I wonder how necessary those two elements are ?? It definitely seems as though it complicated the making of the original part quite a bit,.....if it wasn't required, looks Walter Chrysler wouldn't have included it in the machining of the part..?? Again, I was lost as a goose in my thinking when I posted this - so thanks Apollo for bringing me back down to earth here,....but now, loosing that oil groove on each of the bearings where they ride up against the spacer shaft, and also loosing the additional needle bearing support doesn't feel real warm and fuzzy either.... At this point, I don't know if anyone out there might possible be able to offer up an example of having used a Wagoner aftermarket countershaft gear, with successfully longevity ? Steve
  5. Recently I purchased a super clean Wagoner WT-243-8A Countershaft/Cluster Gear to replace the worn mopar 697823 part in the manual 3 speed of our 46 Plymouth. This completed the list of parts I needed and I'm ready to go back together with it all, UNTIL TODAY'S DISCOVERY sigh.............!! I purchased the new Wagoner 3 speed cluster gear from an ebay seller with a 100% rating, (great guy - and he's good with refunding me on the purchase), but we're trying to figure out what's going on with this Wagoner aftermarket replacement part. Anyway - the Mopar number is 697832, the Wagoner number is WT-243-8A. The part looks NOS, super clean, but on the inside bore of the gear I just noticed this today - up inside the bore of the gear, (about an inch or so inside) there are no oil grooves on both ends and the center bore of the gear doesn't reduce down in the middle section of the gear to provide the ridge on both ends necessary to hold the needle bearings in place...so I not seeing how this Wagoner part could work, looks like the needle bearings would just wash/walk /move around until one moves far enough to get out of the lineup, then your toast ....we're trying to figure out if it's a defect, etc. Only other thing I could possible think of, is if that slightly smaller bore I'm seeing inside the gear, could possible be a .005 thick hardened inner sleeve ?? Both gears measure 1.005 " on the outermost end of the bore openings. Anyone out there experience anything like this before ?? I've attached 2ea pics that show what I'm trying to describe,. on just a single end of each Cluster gear, my original (which shows the groove "which I'm thinking is an oil groove" and then immediately to the inside of the groove you see where the bore reduces down to a smaller diameter,....the smaller diameter runs through the entire mid section of the gear, then you have a repeat of the same oil groove and the bore opens up slightly, again on the opposite end of the gear....the reduction in the center looks to be about .0010, and this gives you an edge for your needle bearings to ride/butt up against, while resting inside the gear between the bore of the gear and the spacer tube. Just wondering if among all the experience here on the forum - someone might have run across this before possible....maybe it's just a defect, a mis-labeled gear...just guessing at this point...but again , I don't see how it could work, and WT-243-8A does appear to be the good interchange number for the Mopar 697823. ??? Thanks again Steve
  6. 1946 P15 3-speed # 853880-29 tranny bearings

    Thanks Tim, I always appreciate you taking the time to share and help..your knowledge and experience is second to none...again, thanks for being here on the forum to help so many.
  7. 1946 P15 3-speed # 853880-29 tranny bearings

    Well, as far as locateballbearings.com goes, and these MRC bearings I now have in my possession,...and if they are the real deal / built to spec, A stock, obtained at a really great price ???? I hate to say it guys - we will never know I have spoken with two tech engineers who work for SKF (the company that now builds the MRC line of bearings), both told me, you bet - send me the pictures of the bearings you have and we'll be glad to take a look at them and let ya know what we think, (could they possible be counterfeits, etc...), and neither one has returned my emails or called back as promised. From what I've read on the topic, since purchasing these bearings so cheaply, I've learned that it can be so difficult to tell a fake from the real deal, that the metal sometimes actually has to be tested as the only way to find out for sure, etc..lab work type stuff...also, I've discovered it is common for re-sell places, or ebay sellers / amazon,... to buy old stock and run it through their process of re-storing or cleaning them up,...you can also read that these places will often buy B stock....etc...and guess what - this company boasts as being the largest volume dealer on both ebay and amazon....Course, everything is just speculation, and I may be chunking three of the best MRC bearings ever known to man, bought from a company that strives for ultimate customer satisfaction and quality....but unfortunately, in todays environment, it's a gamble - and according to what you read - a much bigger gamble than purchasing from your local retail provider. I don't know how much of this is factual or possible thrown out there to keep the retail prices as high as possible...but, I just don't think there's any way I can feel good about taking the risk. I'm never lucky with stuff like this.. One things for sure, we're working way to hard on this project to gamble when not necessary....and I haven't cut corners yet, so I won't start now. I believe I'll go down to my local bearing supply, and pony up,..as this has turned out to be my $50, learn a good lesson experience..... Onward through the fog !! Steve
  8. P15 door hinge repair progress

    46Ply, this sounds like it might go hand in hand with Mike36's reply to this post, above. He really added in some value with his experience as a machinest, and when he spoke of the drill bit moving faster, and producing larger shavings, the risk of bit breakage increases...as the fragment have a more difficult time getting out of the way.... There is so much awesome knowledge here on this forum. I would be completely on my own here, were it not for the forum. There are lot's of vintage car guys in my area, but they are all Chevy / Ford,...and when you try to talk old Mopar with them, it doesn't seem to translate, they don't seem to wanna or feel like they can help... Steve
  9. P15 door hinge repair progress

    Thanks Andy, it's a start on getting the metal cleaned up, but as ya can see in the pics,..I've got to get deeper into the crevices, etc...or it'll just come back on me. Trying to avoid the phosphoric acid if possible, but that may be the best way to get into those crevices...I know one sand blaster who might be carefull enough with these as well to maybe get into the corner areas and under the lips where the brace plates are spot welded to the frames... Regarding the screws, I appreciate your reply,....I don't know if they even had grade 8 back in the mid 40's...anyway - my parts book just shows them as steel. I'd think even at mild steel there gonna be fairly strong for holding the hinge to the door pillar, but I'd sure think a harder grade would hold up to not rusting better than a softer grade....anyway - if I anti seize the heck out of em where the threads contatc the nut, and also maybe even cover the interior exposed threads up inside the kick panel with a rubber boot, over a layer of anti seize as well,...hopefully that would keep things gold in the future... Always good to hear from you, regards. S.
  10. P15 door hinge repair progress

    wise words Mike, some of this I knew,...some I didn't (thanks for the valuable input).. Steve.
  11. My wife's gotta be the absolute best :)

    Very very True Jan, you are wise,....great to get a reply all the way from Germany,...that's a beautiful front nose piece you have their for your truck...Yes I can't stand to put these parts out in the humidity. It has so much helped to keep them inside while working on them, under AC, etc....I did however recently find out that I had made a mistake .many of my sheet metal parts that have been worked, welded on, sand blasted, then shot in urethane primer, etc....I then brought inside to keep them clean,....we have been so careful (haven't fried a single meal in 3 1/2 years tp keep grease from becoming airborne, etc...and I now discover that me laying plastic over my parts in urethane was a bad idea. the wrong kind of plastic, just generic drop plastic from the hardware store. turns out it is a petroleum product and has probably leached out onto my urethane surface,?? I wouldn't have guessed that one,....I will have to clean all of it to keep from getting fish eyes,...all of it will require sanding anyway, but my understanding is I now have to clean and degrease before I sand, or I'll just spread it around.....oh well, better to find out now than later I suppose, I sure didn't see that one coming... Steve
  12. P15 Newport Wiper Conversion issues resolved

    This drwg view is from inside the car looking forward.
  13. I hope this will help someone down the line. Granted it usually takes me longer than most, but I probably have a solid 48-60 hrs of work and research in figuring this out and making sure the info I'm sharing here with you is correct. In short - the installation instructions that currently come with the Newport Clean Wipe Electric Wiper Motor conversion kits for the 1946-1948 Plymouth cars, are in error in regards to how the wiper linkage arms are supposed to connect to the new Newport wiper motor drive bracket. The way Newport currently has this drawn is exactly opposite of the only way they can/and must attach. I have written Darrel at Newport to let him know, and have not yet received anything back from him. I'm sure when many folks figure this out for themselves they just move on, but I have received a lot of help here on the forum and when I get the opportunity to help back, I am going to do so. If your the guy that's putting the kit into your daily driver car, this error in the instructions won't throw you as big a curve as it does to the person that's building from scratch. Reason being, you can't even see much of your wiper linkage arms underneath the dash cowl, and you probably just connect the only arm that will come close to reaching the nearest anchor post on the drive brkt......but if your the person building from scratch - this is a real delima. Anyway - this might possible explain why the error in the installation instruction figure drawings has never been corrected. Anyhoo - here's the sort and skinny of it...look at the hand drawing I have attached to this post,..it shows how Newport currently shows you to connect the wiper linkage arms to the new electric motor drive bracket. Connecting them this way is physically impossible, it will not work. Newports instructions/drawings were of such detail that it didn't make sense to me for them to be wrong, so I spent a ton of hours researching every aspect of my vacuum motor, the linkage arms by part number / TRICO, etc...trying to find out what might be wrong on my end of things, again giving Newport the benefit of the doubt - that their instructions were correct. Nearing the end of all this researching, I thought I'd figured it out.....the linkage arm drive brkt on the oem vacuum motor is shaped like a boomerang, (V shaped), just like the drive arm brkt on the Newport electric motor, .........BUT..........the Newport drive arm brkt is clocked 180 degrees out of phase with the way the oem drive brkts are built. I thought for sure I'd found the problem,...and Newport gave me their blessing in removing the drive brkt and turning it 180 degrees so that it would match the original curve of the oem brkt...again, I was sure this was gonna be the answer - but it wasn't,....the arms would hit together when the motor was activated....so I put the drive brkt back in its original orientation, and worked with the unit to get this resolved. Here's how I did it. (I would like to be able to take credit for thinking of this, but I can't - I have to thank Darrel at Newport for making this suggestion I positioned the brkt to where the linkage arms looked evenly spaced and clocked in as close to the same position as I could tell by eye, then I snugged the screw down to hold the brkt in place, then I took a 12v pwr supply and just touched pwr to the low speed wire, the arms would move a tiny bit and stop, then I'd repeat the process, etc, until the linkage arms were nearing their most outward movement of travel, then I could stop and compare and loosen my brkt screw, adjust accordingly, and continue moving the arms through their entire wiper motion. This resulted in getting the brkt attached to where it needed to be, without having the motor extend a linkage arm out too far on either side, hitting the stop posts, and putting the motor in a bind. Then I tightened the motor drive brkt down. Now their is a slot on the bracket that attached the entire Newport wiper motor to the cowl of the car, and it's there to allow you to move the entire motor a bit either up or down, to fine tune adjust,..(which is basically the same thing I did here in the paragraph above, but in my case - it would not move the drive brkt far enough and I was trying to hit on the passenger side first when the wiper went through its cycle). In my opinion, the following note regarding the connection of the brkt to the motor is sort of a bummer, but as long as it works, no foul I suppose...it didn't give me much of a warm fuzzy when I was tightening it back up, that's for sure. ....###note###when you look at the drive brkt on the back of the Newport Wiper Motor, you will see the edge of splines where the brkt attaches on to the motor shaft....I was saddened to find out that the splines are only on the brkt collar itself, the motor shaft is completely smooth, so the only thing holding your brkt in place on the shaft is how tight you torque down on the allen screw compressing the brkt collar onto the shaft with friction...it took a short cheater wrench on the end of my allen wrench to get the screw to originally break loose, and it gave me 4 little bark noises when I un-did it to remove the brkt, so when I tightened it back up, I repeated the process, tightened the screw down snug by hand, than used my short cheater hand wrench and got 4 little barks from it. as I torqued it on down,....pretty un-easy feeling for sure, I wasn't too happy to say the least,...how tight is tight ?? is this gonna try and move sometime in the future ? problem am I fixing to break this screw off ? problem,...anyway - I made the decision to stop, and the screw didn't break off, or crack " to my knowledge" , again, (peace of mind - oh yeah ! oh boy ! are we having fun yet ), I am not here to bash Newport, I am thankful for their kit, and maybe my wiper linkage arm drive brkt being off enough to cause me the issues it did, was an isolated case,....you may not experience that. Seems like most everyone out there in the internet world has nothing but praises to say about them,...but I can tell ya for sure, at present the instructions for adding this kit to a P15 direct you to attach the curved linkage arm to the bottom post of the motor drive brkt., from the RH passenger side of the car, and to connect the straight linkage arm to the upper post on the motor drive brkt, from the LH drivers side of the car,...THIS IS 100% BACKWARDS AND IN CORRECT.....and NO, this is not a matter of looking at the instruction from either inside the car or from the front of the car, the drwgs are clear about what they are saying,and the drwgs are basically all ya get ,.. Do it exactly the opposite, curved arm from the LH driver side to the upper post and straight arm from the RH passenger side to the lower post...as shown in the attached drwg. Best of luck, Steve Gentry
  14. My Jana puts up with me and my projects - somehow I am thankful, to say the least...I often wonder if the tide were reversed, would I be as understanding ?? The inside of our house for the last four years. ( and there's actually 2 more rooms full not pictured here ).. Thankfully she can see that most of this will be back on the P15 over the course of the next year or so... I am blessed to have her, that's for sure.. S.\teve
  15. 1946 P15 3-speed # 853880-29 tranny bearings

    Well, I received my new bearings from Locateballbearings.com....Not sure yet exactly what to think about them....Sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees, that for sure, and as a buyer (in hindsight) I should have been a bit slower to act on this. Again these may be fine, but I'm super anal about not taking chances. All that said here we go, here's what I basically know so far. Initially when I searched for MRC bearings (which I had never heard of before, but is what I found to be inside this manual transmission when I took it apart), I was led to the locateballbearings.com web site. The web site looks state of the art, A+ BBB rating, #1 government bearing supplier, etc... Called their sales desk and told they were available, as NEW - made in the USA.and the total price was $54.00 delivered to my door for all three bearings (pinion drive and front and rear main shaft). Why so cheap ? I asked, response - you are cutting out the middle man.....so I ordered them. They arrived in 4-5 days as promised, shipping container was very good. The following pictures show what was received. After receiving the bearings I called them again and spoke with customer service. I asked where the bearings came from and was told "our west coast warehouse". I inquired about the generic blue boxes the bearings came in and was told, that the original boxes usually have shelf wear, tears, etc...so they re-box them up when they ship them out. So in result, at best, what we have here is original MRC bearings that were purchased somewhere from surplus stock and re-sold. After doing a little more digging, I ended up speaking with some folks at SKF (the Swedish bearing company that now supports the MRC bearing line) and they were good enough to ask that I send them pictures of the bearings, showing the engraving, etc..in effort of determining if these are real MRC or possible forgeries. My hats off to SKF for being good enough to do this, course I can see how they would be interested as well,..but still they reached out my what offering to help determine, if possible. Waiting to hear back from SKF, I'll keep you posted on what I find out. Purchasing these bearings would be a result in savings of $100 or better, probably more like closer to $150 - $175,....depending on where you bought the Timken interchange bearing. napa was the most expensive,...but honestly in hindsight I don't know of this is worth the uncertainty , etc... if the bearings aren't up to spec, no matter how cheap they are, it's nothing but a loosing proposition.... Again, I'll keep you guys posted on what SKF has to say about these. Steve
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