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BHondle'40

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  • Gender
    Male
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    Washington
  • My Project Cars
    1940 Plymouth P9 Coupe

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    Washington
  • Occupation
    Tax, Legal

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    Spokane, WA
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  1. Ed, I am in the process of doing precisely what your thread had depicted, to one (and perhaps two) of my hubcaps for my '40 P-9. I successfully removed the skin in the manner that you described, although it was not easy for me. However, my dents were fairly substantial - to the point that the skin was broken through in several places. But, now I am thinking that I may have made an error and that is why I am resurrecting this thread. First, I soldered the torn skin, but the solder did not flow properly (it simply "balled up" and rolled off). I sanded through the chrome plating to the brass-looking surface below that, thinking that this was the reason the solder failed to stick. But that didn't really seem to help the situation. So I used some soldering rod that I purchased from Muggy Weld that is used for pot metal repair. That seems to have held adequately. But, now my concern is that the plating may not adhere to the repairs spot. Did you need to repair yours (other than tap-out the dents)? If so, what did you use? Last, how did you affix the skin back on to the backing. I realize the question was asked but you replied with a funny. So I was hopeful that you could apprise me as to how the installation of the skin back on to the cap went. It appears that your edges on the skin after your removal were very uniform, but mine are not (as I mentioned, it was not easy for me to get the skin off and I occasionally mucked-up the edge). Did you merely gently tap the edges of the skin back down over the edge of the cap? Did you use some sort of adhesive as a precautionary measure as one gentlemen asked? I truly thank you in advance for your anticipated courtesy. Bruce
  2. Ahhhh, your pictures were great, thank you! I purchased the clamp-on type of dial indicator because I did not understand how the magnetic portion would be attached to the backing plate. Dummy me never considered the way you have shown it in your pictures, thanks! But I do have one question about the pictures. How is it that the dial is registering at about .005" when you are not yanking on it? Unless that particular type of gauge stops the needle at the maximum reached "out" point automatically, something like a stopwatch? So, then, I was correct in concluding that the distance the axle is able to be pushed "in" would be added to the distance that registered on the indicator when the axle was yanked "out", in order to get the total axle end play? I appreciate you saying that removing shims might be because the bearings were worn. I guess I shouldn't be surprised if that were actually the case, after "going through" the vehicle during this restoration process. I will say that when I washed the bearings (initially in gasoline, and then followed up with lacquer thinner) to remove the differential oil from them (since the bearings on both sides were full of differential oil but no grease), I then blew them out with my small air compressor and the air made the bearings move nicely. As a result, I never took particular note of when I squeezed the actual bearing into the race and then turned it back and forth. However, I didn't notice any "catching" or scoring or scratching or anything other than the fact that it rolled nicely as I would expect it to. But, despite my neophyte observations, logic is telling me that the bearings are either worn or the end play was way out of specs to begin with. In either case, the bearings are now nicely greased and the axle end play is within specs. ? The vehicle is going to a stock driver, except I have already done the back package tray, trap door, and rear side panels the way I wanted them to look, rather than how they looked when stock. Further, I have installed sound proofing throughout (except for the floorboards that I have yet to do). I will be installing seat belts after this axle adventure is concluded, and it's to the point now where paint and tires would be the next project in order to finish the interior and get this puppy back on the road. It still has the bias ply tires it had on it when my parents acquired the vehicle in the early 1960's! The Plymouth Service Manual merely tells a person what the axle end play needs to be adjusted to, but it doesn't explain how that should be done, so I truly appreciate the continued education! ? Bruce
  3. Thank you once again for your reply, Dodgeb4ya! I was eagerly awaiting it, and you did not disappoint. ? Thanks for telling me that when checking the end play for these axles that the indicator would normally be attached to the backing plate. I attempted to do that, but after several of frustrating hours (no kidding) I gave up and came up with a new idea. The indicator I purchased is the clamp-on style. But the telescoping arm that attached to the clamp on one end and the indicator on the other end was impossible for me to properly align. But since the rear axle is on jack stands there was no movement of the actual axle housing during the measurements. The axle housing was solid. I appreciate you telling me that I have to yank on the axle firmly, and also I needed to move the axle in and out while yanking. So, then, I was correct in concluding that the distance the axle is yanking "in" would be added to the distance that registered on the indicator when the axle was yanked "out", in order to get the total axle end play? With regard to needing to remove shims when no bearings were replaced, I did indeed tighten the backing plates up to roughly 25 ft lbs. Now, I must tell you that I have not yet used my torque wrench to verify that, but I believe that I have done that (and more) with my hand tightening thus far because I have a tendency to over-gorilla things. But I will verify that when I put on the outer seal, which I have not yet done because I was awaiting further direction from you mentors. ? I appreciate you saying that excessive end play would result if the bearings were galled or worn out, or the end of axle shaft was worn. But since I actually had to remove two shims in order to obtain the required end play it would appear that just the opposite is probably the case. I'm certainly not a bearing expert but they appeared to be in good shape to me. I can tell you that the vehicle was not well maintained prior to my parents acquiring it. So I am thinking that because there was no grease in the bearings, and the fact that both the inner oil seal as well as the outer oil seal on the passenger side were not correct for the vehicle (according to Todd Fitch's cross reference information, which is most useful indeed - and kudos go to him as well), that the end play was way out of whack to begin with. BUT, NOW I know to always check the axle end play check before undertaking any axle repairs. ? And, yes, it's a totally new learning experience for me. I do indeed view at it as fun. My parents purchased this vehicle in the early 1960's for $40. Soon thereafter the wiring under the dash shorted and burned, so a restoration project was born. While the engine was rebuilt in the early 1970's, the vehicle laid around in the garage in parts (with essentially only the body bolted on the frame) for the next 46 or more years. Anyway, I have undertake the restoration project. It is coming along nicely, in my humble opinion, and has provided me much joyful education. ? With gratitude, Bruce
  4. I apologize that one picture got included twice in my previous post. Bruce
  5. I once again express my appreciation to all of you. I was able to work on the axle end-play today. I purchased a dial indicator and now fully understand the need for that precision instrument in this matter. In fact, I now see that it cannot be properly done without it. But, I never really could figure out the proper way to adjust the goose neck, so I ended up attaching it to a jack stand and then moving the jack stand closer until the tip of the indicator came in contact with the axle, and then I adjusted the face of the indicator to zero. Attached as the first picture is how I set it up, and the dial indicator is at zero. Then I firmly pushed in the axle (and it went in about .002") and then firmly pulled on it and the second picture shows end play of slightly over the .003" after I pulled on it. So I guess that the .002" should be added to the .003", to get total end play of .005.....is that right? Then I pulled harder (like....really hard.....since I don't really know how hard I should be pulling in the first place) and the end play increased to about .005", so perhaps the end play is actually at the .008" maximum? This result was essentially the same on each side. I thereafter whacked each axle to ensure that the bearing cup was firmly against the backing plate, and rechecked the axle end play, and it had stayed the same. However, I actually had to remove one of the two thin shims from each side in order to effectuate the proper end play. I don't have a micrometer so I don't know the the actual width of each shim that I removed, but I am guessing that each was .005" based on the initial end-play results I received when I simply reinstalled what had previously been used. Just so that you don't need to re-read my lengthy initial post, I will simply say that I merely replaced the inner oil seals on both axles and greased the bearings, and that is all I did, so I am thinking that the axle end-play was way beyond the maximum to begin with (since I had to remove one shim from each side). But I now have an additional question. I could not hear any "clunk" (let alone any "weak clunk") from either axle when I checked the end play, as I have read from previous posts in this thread. Now, mind you, the bearings are nicely greased at this point. So I am presuming that (not hearing any weak clunk) is not any big deal since the reading on the dial indicator is what really matters, correct? Sorry that I could not figure out how to rotate the pictures when they were inserted into this post - no matter what editing I attempted. ? Thanks again for your continued assistance. ? Bruce
  6. Thank you all for your courteous responses, and a special THANK YOU to Dodgeb4ya. I truly appreciate your patience with me and your perseverance in writing your detailed instructions in this matter. ? I have used an NOS inner seal on the driver's side, and a NAPA interchange seal on the passenger side. Neither seal is wider than factory specifications and both have been driven fully into to the axle housing to the machined housing stop depth. I have installed the axles and races/cups and have driven them to within a 1/16" of being flush with the end of the axle housing (i.e., the backing plate mounting surface). Both backing plates and axle housing ends have been cleaned of debris. I will now apply the remainder of your instructions and let you know the results accordingly. ? Thanks again, Bruce
  7. Gentlemen, please permit me to ask an additional question on this thread that was started in 2019 by Mr. Duffield, rather than starting an additional thread. I apologize if that would be more appropriate. In any event, I believe that I have read just about every thread with regard to extracting and replacing the inner oil seals to the axles in my stock 1940 Plymouth P-9. The bearings for each axle looked good and the axle shafts appeared to be in good shape as well (no scoring to my observation, but there was some scuffing that was smoothed out with steel wool). I replaced the driver's side oil seal with NOS #651678 (I believe it has the leather seal). However, I replaced the passenger side with NAPA #13797 with a nitrile seal. I used the modern (NAPA) seal on the passenger side because the NOS seal that was used for the driver's side was 1/2" in width, and after inserting it as far as it would go into the axle it still obscured about half of the hole for the plug that I would remove in the future to thumb-in grease for the bearing. However, since the NAPA seal was only 1/4" in width it did not obscure the grease plug hole after it was installed on the passenger side. I recite this information for background information to tell you what I have done. I am now attempting to adjust the end play to the axles, and I have applied the information on this thread (i.e., reinstalling the two steel shims that were existing on each side of the axle housing (they are very thin, so I am thinking .005" or .01"); then tightening each backing plate against those shims and the bearing race; then "whacking" the end of each axle with a regular hammer and a block of wood). Now, this is my quandary: While I don't have any type of gauge to determine the axle end play of .003" to .008", I nevertheless believe that the axle end play on the driver's side might be within that parameter; however, the end play on the passenger's side is more than that of the driver's side. "Dodgeb4ya" stated above in this thread: "If you take them apart/out put them right back as they were on... balance them equal side to side. This applies to the old original bearings and shims." But, in my case, putting the shims back as they were, and balancing them (the shims) equal side to side, has not resulted in equal end play for each axle. Now, I must candidly admit that I did not pay particular attention to the end play before I took things apart and replaced the inner oil seals because only the driver's side was slightly leaking. So only the driver's side was my initial concern. However, the vehicle has been sitting in the garage (in parts) since the early '60's and it is only recently that it has been put together. I had previously repacked the front bearings but "dummy me" thought that the rear axle bearings (that I did not know how to get to) must have been lubricated by the differential. Naturally I have discovered that is not the case, and since there was a slight leak on the rear of the driver's side backing plate I therefore felt I should inspect the bearings before I drive it too much. Upon disassembly of the driver's side I discovered that there was hardly any grease at all in the bearing. If there wasn't grease in the driver's side then there probably wasn't any in the passenger side either, so I then set out to repack the passenger side bearing was well. As it turned out, there was even less grease on the passenger side bearing, so it was a good thing I checked. As a result, the end play was not on my radar at that point, so I don't know whether the greater end play on the passenger side (which I believe is more than the allowable .008") existed before I removed that axle. Am I misunderstanding something here? Is it going to matter whether there is slightly more shim material on one side than the other, in order to obtain the proper end play for each axle? Wouldn't getting the same end play be the main goal, in order to center the axles in the housing, even though it may require more shims on one side than the other? I thank you in advance, Zen Masters and other mentors, for your continued courtesy and consideration! ? Bruce
  8. Thank you Robert, for the picture of your '38 Plymouth Coupe, which was quite interesting, and functional, I might add. So there appears to be one solid drop-down cover for the entire space, right? Does the cover have some kind of fasteners at the top to keep it closed, and is it hinged on the bottom? Bruce
  9. Brian, I VERY MUCH THANK YOU for posting pictures of your '39 Dodge access door area. My '40 Plymouth is identical. And your pictures solved the mystery for me (with regard to the material on the left-hand side of the picture that I had initially posted in this matter). The material that is hanging-down in my picture is material that get wrapped-around the left edge of the frame for the access door (i.e., the material covers the metal against which the access door closes) in order to provide a uniform appearance. So the material that I have shown in my initial posting must get glued (presumably) to the metal frame against which the access door closes. As I mentioned, the setup and appearance of your '39 Dodge is precisely the same as my '40 Plymouth (except yours is in WAY better shape ?), right down to the color of the tarp and the backing that is shown on the access door itself, and the fact that the access door provides access to the entire trunk area with no further divider (as Plymouth Adams mentioned in his post with regard to his '41 Dodge). Another "bonus" your pictures provided to me is the fact that the package tray (back ledge) appears to be covered in the same tarp material, which I had never even considered before. So, you have solved my mystery for which I, again, greatly thank you, as well as the others who responded! Bruce
  10. Say "brian b", would you be so kind as to post a picture of the rear seat area of your '39 Dodge for me? If that would be inconvenient for you then I would certainly understand. I just have never seen an actual "original" view of the access door area, and am wondering how it looks as it is attached to the bottom of the horizontal "top frame" of the package tray. Bruce
  11. Thank you "brian b" for your reply. It is totally logical that my 1940 Plymouth would follow the same procedure as was found in your 1939 Dodge. It is totally reasonable that there would not be any tarp over the access door, and the existence of what appears to be the remnants of a tarp on my vehicle (as shown in the last picture of my previous post) is simply going to have to remain a mystery to me. ? Thanks again to everyone who responded in this matter. Bruce Hondle
  12. Thank you "Plymouthy Adams" for your reply. And, I am sorry it was difficult to discern the issue by the picture I attached. I had quite a time reducing it below the 3 MB limit for uploading pictures, so I had to crop it more than I would have preferred. But, yes, there is the a set of drill holes for the hinges behind the passenger seat. I have the original locking access door (and key) and am in the process of repairing it at this time. Like your '41 D19, the access door on my '40 P9 is hinged at the bottom of the door and opens inward toward the passenger seat. The hinges are hidden when the access door is viewed from the interior side of things (when the passenger side of the bench seat is titled forward). Behind the driver's seat, however, is the space for the spare tire that gets affixed to a plywood board that, in turn, gets attached to a cross-frame attached to the package tray and the floor pan. There is no access door (or any other access to the trunk) that is located behind the driver's seat. Rather, there is a tarp-like cover that is attached to the bottom of the horizontal "top frame" of the package tray (i.e., "back ledge") behind the the driver's seat and drapes downward over the spare tire behind the driver's seat. That original cover is completely intact on my vehicle (although I will be replacing it with new fabric) so I don't have any question about it and therefore did not attach a picture in my initial post. My question was trying to determine whether there was a similar or identical tarp-like cover over the access door that is behind the passenger seat, with the thought that perhaps the manufacturer was trying to aesthetically match the appearance on both sides with a cover (which may simply have been a laughable thought since I realize that this is a business coupe and is on the low-end of things so perhaps functionality rather than aesthetics would have been the goal - and further realizing that the cover would essentially be a constant nuisance to a businessman who used the access door). But because I didn't know, I felt it would be appropriate to at least ask. ? Thank you "Andydodge" for your reply. I had seen your blue '40 Plymouth in previous posts, and enjoyed seeing it again, and think I have finally figured out what "Oz" means, based on your location (which I hadn't figured out before)! ? Thank you "dpollo" for your reply about your P10. I am thinking that you and "Plymouthy Adams" may have confirmed in my mind that there was NOT a cover over the access door behind the passenger seat (irrespective of the fabric hanging down from the bottom of the package tray in my initial picture), and that the only cover was over the spare tire behind the driver's seat. Anyone out there disagree with this conclusion? I realize that this conclusion presents me with a mystery, since I simply am unable to explain the reason for the fabric hanging down to the length of the floor on the passenger side. You probably are unable to discern from the initial picture, but the right-hand side of the fabric (down the entire length of the fabric) appears to have be frayed, indicating that there was more material that was at one time attached to that had been ripped away. I am attaching a second picture of that fabric, which shows that the fabric is attached to the bottom of the horizontal rail of the package tray. I have simply flipped the fabric back on to the package tray in this picture, so you can see it is solidly attached to the rail (precisely like the cover over the spare tire on the driver's side). I once again apologize that this picture is visibly smaller than what I would have preferred, but it is still 2.8 MB in size so that seems to be the best I will be able to do at present. A sincere "Thank You" to all who responded. I have enjoyed reading a number of other posts from some of you, as I have been lurking for quite some time on this site and have been garnering some experience in working on my P9. ? Bruce Hondle
  13. Hello All! I have reviewed the posts in answer to a question some years ago about the access door on the 1940 P9 Roadking coupe. I was hopeful that someone would be so kind as to answer a question for me. I have searched the internet and have not been able to get an answer to whether or not the access door on the passenger side of the 1940 P9 had a "tarp-like" cover over it, like the one that covers the spare tire behind the driver's seat. The passenger side of my vehicle appears to have the remnants of was a tarp-like cover over the access door behind the passenger's seat, like that which appears behind the driver's side and covers the spare tire. I have attached a picture of the remnant of the material on the passenger for your review. In any event, would you kindly tell me whether there was a tarp-like cover over the access door behind the passenger seat, similar to that found behind the driver's seat that covers the spare tire? Further, if any would kindly attach pictures of the access door and tarp-like covers then that would truly be appreciated as well. I am in the process of restoring the vehicle and it is going to be a driver. I thank you in advance for your anticipated courtesy and consideration. Bruce Hondle
  14. I appreciated you sharing your photo journey with regard to your '41 Coupe. I am in the process of restoring a '40 Coupe (P-9) as a stock driver after having been apart in the garage (mine and others) since about 1965 or so. I have been informed that the trunk springs for the '41 Coupe will bolt right up to the '40 Coupe and turn the '40 Coupe's trunk lid into one that is a spring-assisted lift like what was started with the '41 trunk lid. I was wondering whether you might have some extra trunk lid springs for your '41 that you won't be using on your project. I look forward to seeing your future progress. Thank you, Bruce
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