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The Rough Field Spotters Guide for Mopar Overdrives


timkingsbury

25,569 views

Overview:

 

We keep being asked about Mopar Overdrives, so I thought I would do a blog on spotting overdrives.

 

I know from the start this is not the definitive guide, thus I have titled it - "The Rough Field Spotters Guide for
Overdrives" and this will start off being slanted towards Plymouths !
This will definitely grow as I need to take some pictures of earlier (pre-1942) overdrives to put up.

 

If you want to add replies with more information, super, more than welcome. If you want to send me pictures
and add them in, again more than welcome. I will be putting a list of contributors on the bottom. I say that because my intention if to keep adding to this. As well I will put up a few pictures that I happen to have close at hand, but will adjust, add and change pictures as time goes on.

 

I may also put in a tab with links to other sites, article etc on overdrives as I find them !

 

Chapter 1:

 

Chrysler started using Overdrive Transmissions in 1934 and Walter Chrysler described it something to the effect, that the use of true overdrive transmissions were made for high speed cruising and award-winning economy should drivers opt for moderate operation.

 

 

"Walter P. Chrysler at White House (cropped)" by Harris & Ewing, photographer

 

"Walter P. Chrysler at White House (cropped)" by Harris & Ewing, photographer

 

There were several generation of early overdrives used prior to Walter Chrysler's death on 1940, starting with the introduction in
1934 and there use would extend to every part of the Mopar family before the retirement of the L-Head of Flathead Engine Line.

 

We will concentrate here on the early overdrives, leading up to the "peak" of the Borg Warner Electric Overdrive coming out in the 1952 Plymouth Car line with the R10G1 Borg Warner overdrive attached to a 3 speed manual transmission. The R10G1 was used fro 1952 to 1956, when Plymouth then changed to the longer R10J1 Borg Warner overdrive transmission.

 

Along the way in the 1952 Canadian Dodge and Fargo heavy trucks a 5 speed transmission was introduced with an option of having 5th gear as overdrive. Teamed up with a 2 speed rear axle, it provided quite a range for hauling heavy payloads, or rolling down the highway empty.

 

Chapter 2: - The history of the overdrives (short version)

 

On Monday April 13, 1931 when the United States Patent Office opened, Rex Keller was there to file application # 529,666, making 36 Claims for patent of a “Clutch”. This application would eventually be issued of May 16, 1939 as patent # 2,158,544 to Rex E Keller Los Angeles California.

Patent  R E keller    2,158,544 april 13 1931   clutch   illustration 1

 

Patent  R E keller    2,158,544 april 13 1931   clutch   illustration 2

 

 

The application for patent was pitched to Walter P Chrysler, who would assign it to Carl Breer the head of Engineering to see if they could utilize the concept. In Carl Breers, book/autobiography entitled “The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy” there is an excellent explanation of what took place and here is an excerpt of that book.

 

The Birth Of Chrysler Corporation And Its Engineering Legacy

 

The Birth Of Chrysler Corporation And Its Engineering Legacy book    page 120 121

 

 

The Birth Of Chrysler Corporation And Its Engineering Legacy book   page 122 123

 

 

The Birth Of Chrysler Corporation And Its Engineering Legacy book    page 124 125

 

 

It would be during this process that the terms “Keller Clutch” and “Overdrive” would come forward. It should be noted that this “Keller Clutch” is not named after K.T Keller (Kaufman Thuma Keller) who was head of Chrysler Manufacturing at the time, and would upon Walter Chrysler retiring in 1935 become the “hand-appointed successor” as Chairman of the Board of Chrysler Corporation, but was Rex E Keller and inventor from Los Angeles California.

 

Once Engineering had perfected the Overdrive Transmission Carl Breer discussed its manufacturing with K.T Keller, and both asked for a meeting with Walter Chrysler to discuss that matter. Breer and Keller made a presentation on both the “Keller Clutch”/Overdrive Transmission as well as its manufacture Their estimated cost to setup manufacturing was $25,000, to which Walter Chrysler is quoted in Breers book as saying “We can’t afford it; let Borg Warner make it.”

 

What isn’t included in Breer’s book is how the $25,000 estimate was arrived at, or what the recommendation of Keller and Breer was. It is my belief that Keller, who was already stretched to bring the new Airflow to completion made sure the estimate was high enough that the joint recommendation of Keller and Breer would be approved by Walter Chrysler.

 

My Grandfather’s opinion was that this was the most expensive error in Chrysler’s history and ironically mirrored that of Henry Ford with the Dodge Brothers. While it brought the Overdrive transmission to the Chrysler and Desoto lines well ahead of any other automotive manufacturer, it also opened up a Patent that was controlled by Chrysler to its competition through the manufacturing deal with Borg Warner. It would soon be referred to as “the Borg Warner Overdrive”.

 

Well after my Grandfather’s death when Daimler agreed to sell the Chrysler unit to Cerberus Capital Management in May 2007 for US$6 billion, Borg Warner had a market cap value of almost twice the value of Chrysler.

 

Unfortunately it seems Grandfather was indeed correct, and he often pointed out that it was not the 1st time where a smaller supplier was put into business and eventually dwarfed the larger manufacturer. Of course he was referring to the Dodge Brothers who prior to going on their own to manufacture their own Cars and Trucks, were major suppliers for Henry Ford. In 1903 the Dodge brothers had agreed to supply Henry Ford with 650 chassis (including engines, transmissions, and axles) for $250 each.
In this case to avoid a further investment of $25,000 Chrysler put a much small manufacturer into a business, which later on would come back to bite Chrysler. To put it into relative terms Chrysler had purchased Dodge for approximately $170 million in 1928.

 

On March 14, 1934 Rex Keller would file application # 715,513, with the United States Patent Office making 4 Claims for patent of an ”Automatic Transmission”. This application would eventually be issued of December 17, 1940 as patent # 2,225,174 to Rex E Keller Beverly Hills California. It would be in this application for patent that the first use of the terminology “Overdrive” would be used. Ironically this patent was not issued until after Walter P Chrysler’s death some 4 months earlier.

 

Patent  R E keller 2,225,174 march 14 1934   illustration 1

 

Patent  R E keller 2,225,174 march 14 1934   illustration 2

 

 

Patent  R E keller 2,225,174 march 14 1934   illustration 4

 

 

So who was Borg Warner -

 

In 1902 Thomas W. Warner formed the Warner Gear Company in Muncie Indiana to manufacture automobile parts, steering, and transmission gears. In 1909 the First manual transmission is manufactured by Warner Gear. The original Borg-Warner Corporation was formed in 1928 by the merger of Warner Gear, which itself was founded by Thomas Warner in 1901; Borg & Beck founded by Charles Borg and Marshall Beck in 1903 and Marvel Schelber Carburetor Co founded in 1905 by George Schebler and the Mechanics Universal Joint Company.

 

Chapter 3: The patents

 

- Work in progress. I now have them, just need to figure out how to get them in the blog entry

 

Chapter 4: The overdrive generations

 

This is a high level chart on the various Mopar Overdrives

 

1934 overdrive 1st used by Chrysler (I believe in the Chrysler Custom Imperial Royal and the Airflow)

 

This was a Warner Transmission and Warner Overdrive

 

Patent Image - R E Keller Patent: 2,225,174 Filed: March 14 1934

Patent Images R E keller 2,225,174 march 14 1934

 

Walter P Chrysler showing of The 1934 chrysler airflow - equipped with overdrive

Walter P Chrysler showing of The 1934 chrysler airflow - equipped with overdrive

 

1935 Chrysler - Tr14 warner transmission with a separate overdrive unit.

 

It expanded in the models it was used, some standard equipment and some Optional
The models this transmission and overdrive came in were:

 

CHRYSLER AIRFLOW, MODEL Cl OPTL.
CHRYSLER IMPERIAL, C2 (1935)
CHRYSLER CUST. IMP. CW* ('35), C3 ('35),
DE SOTO, MODEL SG (1935)--OPTL.

 

An early advertisement showing "over drive"

 

1935 airflow with automatic overdrive

 

1936- This year is one on to its own it is a 1 piece - Borg Warner T86 1A overdrive transmission

 

 

1936 T86 1a Borg Warner Overdrive - Chrysler

 

1936 T86 1a Borg Warner Overdrive - Chrysler

 

 

1365717351_1936chrylseroverdrive3.jpg.b17bcfe21626a88a0bb9560b6ff9760e.jpg

 

87962057043000.jpg.b8a3852ae80cc72ac6ebce6600fee36c.jpg

 

81700093264900.jpg.12cd5c09e72c8e526926f11c7afe3129.jpg

 

 

 

 

1937 - This is the first year of the Borg Warner R6 transmission

 

The 1937 is the last year with the parking brake on the floor and the parking brake drum on

the back of the transmission has the connection on the right side.    Its still a non electric overdrive.

 

P1110411.JPG.b51fabdba455f705567c622d16ed8305.JPG

 

!cid_8135C40D-FDAF-4B5C-A0A8-7CFCCBB874D2.jpg.11b81f006900875ff467764b57bb854f.jpg

It is at this point that Chrysler really started to pump the overdrive in its marketing brochures.
Not only was it featured in the Car Brochure but they produced a separate brochure just
on the overdrive and its features.

 

Here is an example of the car brochure

 

1937 chrysler imperial brochure

1937 chrysler imperial brochure 1

1937 chrysler imperial brochure 2

 

1937 chrysler brochure On overdrive

 

1937 chrysler brochure On overdrive 1

1937 chrysler brochure On overdrive 2

 

1937 chrysler brochure On overdrive 3

 

 

Here is the rare 1937 Overdrive Brochure

 

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 1

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 2

 

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 3

 

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 4

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 5

 

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 6

 

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 7

1937 chrysler overdrive brochure 9

 

1938 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - still a top loader, floor shift only

 

With the 1938  the parking brake on the drum now moves over to the left side and this is the last year of a pure floor shift.

It is still a non-electric overdrive,  which means for example if your going up a hill in 3rd overdrive, you will need to  shift

down to 2nd.  You cant just get it out of overdrive without slowing down substantially.  You need to be going down

to between 25-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.

 

1139554118_Intake(tranny)III.JPG.cf010ebbada5480673717635059db351.JPG

 

438432808_Intake(tranny)IV.JPG.7e2c9bf38fac459695b8f99a96b63ffc.JPG

 

 

311878144_Intake(tranny)V.JPG.6b389e59e688b320d2715703f80e8046.JPG

 

Here is a 1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial Brochure - extracts

 

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 00

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 01

 

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 02

 

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 11

 

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 12

 

 

1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial 13

 

 

Here is he 1938 Chrysler Royal Imperial Brochure - extracts

1938 Chrysler Royal  Amp  Imperial 00

 

1938 Chrysler Royal  Amp  Imperial 02

 

 

1938 Chrysler Royal  Amp  Imperial 33

 

 

1938 Chrysler Royal  Amp  Imperial 40

 

 

1938 Chrysler Royal  Amp  Imperial 41


Here are some pictures of a 1938 overdrive transmission, freshly restored  January 22 2015 by the master -George Asche Jr

 

 

1938 Borg Warner Overdrive

 

 

1938 Borg Warner Overdrive

 

 

1938 Borg Warner Overdrive

 

 

1939 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - "Electric overdrive" & Optional two formats

 

So for 1939 you could have the top load or floor shift and you could have column shift which was done with a cable.
1939 also saw the first use of the solenoid so it would electrically kick it out of overdrive. Prior to that you have to get down to about

25-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.

 

1939chrysler 1

 

Illustration showing the cable used in the Column shift

1939chrysler

 

1939chrysler 2

 

1939chrysler 3

 

 

1939chrysler 4

 

 

Here are some pictures of a 1939 overdrive transmission.

1939 transmission 5

 

1939 transmission 4

 

 

1939 transmission 3

 

 

1939 transmission 1

 

 

1939 transmission

 

 

776620979_1939transmission.jpg.f7bb78b202530aac84e1457fbf3acf88.jpg1218211278_1939transmission5.jpg.e5c220d59f3cc15e58e6ce4f3283052a.jpg

1940 – The Borg Warner R7 overdrive and Now Only column shift - 1 year only

 

This is also the last year where the gear cluster and 2nd speed gear in the 3 speed transmission
gave you a "fast 2nd speed". This was done with a cluster tooth count of - "14.19.25.32" and the 2nd speed
gear was a 23 tooth count. After this the cluster was a tooth count of "14.19.23.32"

 

Chrysler also beefed up the cluster gear so it is thicker than the 1939 and older transmissions.

 

I have a good reference document describing the "WARNER OVERDRIVE "KICK-DOWN1 CONTROL" dated 1940, 

I have uploaded it here called " 1940 Overdrive info

 

1940 overdrive info.pdf

 

1941 - The Borg Warner R7 overdrive ends as a new car offering

 

It seems very few cars in 1941 had the R7 overdrive in them although I do know that there was a Chrysler Service
bulletin that described putting this R7 overdrive transmission in later model cars and I know of at least 1 1942 Plymouth which had an overdrive from the factory in it. Keep in mind Canada entered the 2nd World War in 1939,
so civilian cars after 1939 were tough to get until the 1946 model year. This maybe one of the very 1st Plymouths
to have an overdrive in it, as everything I have described earlier are Chrysler and Desoto vehicles.

 

 

 

1952 - 1956 - The Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive and the full introduction in the Plymouth line

 

1952   became the 1st time since 1941 that Chrysler  had overdrives  in any vehicle.   The overdrive patent, known as the Keller Clutch

had see the head of production outsource its build to Warner, which eventually became Borg Warner.   The agreement he signed

with  Warner was that as long as Chrysler was using the overdrive Warner(Borg Warner) could not make overdrives for any other companies,

 

Following Walter Chrysler stepping down as the President of Chrysler, and passing away in 1940 then former head of production, then the President

of Chrysler  decided to drop the use of overdrives.  His feeling was there was ample  horsepower,  a great supply of gasoline all over the place an the overdrive 

would no longer be required.  How wrong he was!

 

With the  passing of 10 years, Borg Warner reached out to  both Ford and GM and  in 1951 overdrives were supplied to other than Chrysler.  The

impact  was immediate. Customers bought competitors cars when Chrysler didnt have what others described as "The new overdrive concept".

That forced Chrysler to go back to Borg Warner and for the 1952 model year Plymouth would have as an option an overdrive.

 

Unlike the previous overdrives, this was a full electric overdrive,  allowing it to be  taken out of overdrive as any speed, and with the addition

of a kickdown switch on the  carb,  one could  step hard on the gas pedal "kicking it out of overdrive" allowing you to pass.  The overdrive

could be engaged in any gear, making it in effect a 6 speed transmission.

 

Lots more details further in blog article,  but here are a couple of pictures of the r10g1 along with a wiring diagram which shows

a modification allowing for not only the kick down switch on the carb, but also a switch that could be mounted in the cab allowing

the operator to take it out of overdrive without "kicking it down".  That modification was something George Asche Jr made in the late 1950s.

 


1st a marked up picture of an r10g1 pointing out features and length

 

1688570789_1952-563speedwithoverdrivetranny.jpg.830014a45eb1ac47774fa9f9a086727b.jpg

 

here is George Asche Jrs  wiring diagram

 

1475201626_52-56borgwarnerr10PlymouthOverdrivewiringschematic.jpg.b25dc977b2d18e243647091a97dd029e.jpg

 

This is an r10g1 overdrive that has been modified with a long shaft installed (and a long throw out bearing) which then allows

an r10g1 to be used in a Dodge or Chrysler that had a fluid drive or or semi automatic transmission.

 

337761038_1952-56overdrivetrany.jpg.38d16c9ce6f27d105cbe064392093d5f.jpg

 

1956 (late) more commonly 1957-1959 the Borg Warner R10J1 overdrive appeared

 

I say late 1956 because I have known seen a Plymouth built on December 10th 1956 that has the R11 overdrive in it right from the Windsor Ontario Canada plant. I will add a bunch more to this R11 section over time.

 

The r10J1 is essentially in many ways the same as the earlier r10G1  except  it is a much longer transmission.

Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25".     Unfortunately it makes the transmission not an ideal candidate to put into cars prior to 1957

although in the next two pictures the person did put an R10J1 into an earlier Plymouth which did not have the cross over support frame that was in the 1957-1959 cars

 

As well in the reference section will be more pictures of the transmission.

301021976_1957andnewerTotallengthoftrannyfrombellhousingtobackofbrakebandis25.jpg.303742d932cb3edd219997474534e003.jpg

1862086521_1957trannyTotallengthoftrannyfrombellhousingtobackofbrakebandis25.jpg.ada867b2fcbaa0a42077b49382440f67.jpg

The other overdrives

 

I know described in the article in the reference section below stated that it is 1954 that dodge trucks came out with overdrives
and describes other models. Again keep in mind I think we all find new information that allows us to be more intelligent today
than we were yesterday and that doesn't mean that at the time that article was written that was the best information
available to its author.

 

I do know that in 1952 both Dodge/Fargo trucks were offered with overdrives, as I have a 1952 Fargo 4 ton with a
265 ci motor, factory dual intake and exhaust, a 5 speed transmission, with 5th being overdrive

 

I am also told by a very respected expert/researcher of Chrysler Service bulletins which provided information and part
number to retrofit overdrives into cars without original equipped overdrives, which included year prior to 1952.

 

This section will definitely be a work in progress.

 

Chapter 5: Repair, Mix and Match, or Retrofit primer

 

In this chapter I am going to try and go over taking transmissions and overdrives from one year/generation and putting them in earlier or in some case later model cars. I will be looking for help here as I know while we have some great knowledge on the subject there
is much more information out there.

 

As well, we will shortly enter into the discussion of putting a more modern overdrive transmission into your old Plymouth and it
will not be a T5 conversion. Mopar !!!!!

 

Here is a great resource document that covers the Overhauling of the 1935-39 Overdrives, thanks to Bert Platz, who
is one of those guys who Is one of the specialists for the 1935-38 overdrives.

 

Transmission Overhaul - 1935-1939 page 1 of 4

 

Transmission Overhaul - 1935-1939 page 2 of 4

 

 

Transmission Overhaul - 1935-1939 page 3 of 4

 

 

Transmission Overhaul - 1935-1939 page 4 of 4

 

 

The Reference Section:

 

 

R1) One of the great articles I would like to refer to is one that I have been given
Permission from “the living legend” - Jim Benjaminson to use here.

 

Of course if you are not a member of the Plymouth Owners Club here is the place to
Do that and catch other cool stuff and articles

 

http://www.plymouthbulletin.com/index.htm

 

http://p15-d24.com/blog/17/entry-87-borg-warner-overdrive-transmission-by-don-frolich/

 

R2) The Chrysler Master Tech Series - a section of the 1952 films put on you tube.

 

Simply great stuff covering r10g1 overdrives and a few extras I will toss in.

 

Here is the 1952 movie to explain the overdrive to the dealers.. no this is cool !

 

MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-5 Automotive Overdrive - Operation

 

 

MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-6 Automotive Overdrive Controls

 

 

MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-7 Automotive Overdrive Maintenance

 

 

MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-8 Universal Joints And Propeller Shafts

 

 

MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-4 Servicing Tips

 

R3) A few early pictures

 

I will attach here a few early pictures, lol and by early I mean early in the development of this blog post. Not early in the
overdrives coming from Chrysler. That will come later. Right now, since I have been asked to show a picture of an overdrive
I thought I best take this from draft to publish and will just keep updating it.

 

So consider this a work in progress:

 

R4) Reference Pictures
1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner)
Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 19 1/2"

 

1952 56 plymouth standard with overdrive tranny  Total length Of tranny from bell housing To back Of brake band Is 19 And halfinches

 

1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) with input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing

1952 56 plymouth standard with overdrive tranny with input shaft For A fluid drive bell housing    Total length Of tranny from bell housing To back Of brake band Is 19 And halfinches

 

1952 - 1956 Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive attached to a 3 speed standard transmission looking from bottom - again with the input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing

52=56 overdrive looking from bottom

 

* You can adapt the R10G1 overdrive on to the 1953-54 Plymouth Hy-Drive transmission (has a different input shaft)

 

1957 and newer Borg Warner R10J1 transmission attached to a 3 speed standard transmission
Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25"

1957 tranny Total length Of tranny from bell housing To back Of brake band Is 25

 

TRANS OVERDRIVE 11   1957 & newer

 

 

TRANS OVERDRIVE 11   1957 And newer

 

 

1957 And newer Total length Of tranny from bell housing To back Of brake band Is 25

 

 

M6 Gyromatic "semi auto" with r7 overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one)

M6 semi auto with R7 overdrive

 

Dodge Gyromatic - had "fluid drive" without overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one but believe it was a 1949)

fluid drive with overdrive

 

* Note: a 1949 Dodge Gyromatic has a external brake band for the hand brake and a 1950 and newer has
a brake drum with internal shoes for the hand brake
Reference Links:

 

 

https://www.allpar.com/mopar/transmissions/

Edited by timkingsbury

25 Comments


Recommended Comments

I have looked for years for one of these Plymouth overdrives and have not been successful. I made the huge error of listening and putting an s10 t5 in one car. It came out of a diesel truck with a 2.4 ltr engine as the person claimed was the perfect donor transmission.  It was a ton of work. It was well beyond what was glossed over in forum entries. After it was taken out of my car I looked closer and found out why.  Its 1st gear has a ratio of 4.03, a 2nd gear of 2.37 a 3rd gear of 1.49 a 4th gear of 1.00 and a 5th gear of .86.  14% overdrive in 5th gear that is all there was.  I know I cant find a Plymouth overdrive and I know the t5 is a bad option. I don't want to post on the forum given that I have spent hours reading posts on blow hearts like the jackasses that got me trapped into the t5 crap in the 1st place.  I have created this account because I am interested in getting REAL information and not enter into the boxing ring with a bunch of blow hearts.  I have a 1948 Plymouth club  coupe and it was because of your post that I got a 354 rear end out of a Chrysler and in half a Saturday I had it changed into my car. I had better results with a $75 expenditure in half a Saturday than anything I have done to the car. Can you tell me if there are any overdrive options for guys like me who would like an overdrive. A spotters guide is a  really great tool but after a decade of looking I have given up.  I am not rich. I cant afford another s10 goose chase. I know you did not send me on that. Can you help me ? I have a budget of around $1000. If there is no hope please tell me. My email address is * See note: if you would be able to email me if this is not the appropriate vehicle for my inquiry. I would just like to use the winter time to improve my car while I am not working and have it in a heated garage.  I have one last thing to say which is thank you for your time and effort to publish this blog.

 

Note:I am removing my email today (16/03/2015)  to avoid unsolicited emails. This is not a reflection of anyone in this thread currently.

  • Like 2
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Well I am sorry to hear of all your work and efforts only to have them not work out. While I am far from a fan of the t5 transmission conversion I do know those who made it work for them and were happy with the end results.  Lol or at least they were not prepared to admit that it wasn't the best idea. We are all often guilty of doing something and then believing it is the only possible answer to a problem or that others are crazy to do anything else. I too can be guilty of that I am sure. As by Grandfather used to say there is a reason they make Chocolate, Vanilla and Strawberry IceCream.  If you then pushed and said, so are you saying Chevy's are great car, you might be surprised by his response.  It was one that my Dad often gave - "I love Chevy's and I am glad people buy them, because if they didn't I could not have made a great living beating them and fixing them!".

 

I will send you a detailed email to you with a chart of all of the T5 transmissions, covering the gear splits and overdrives available. For the blog, I will say if I already went to all the work you have, so it is really the splits and lack of a decent overdrive ratio, you may wish to consider finding a better

suited t5. There are definitely t5's with much better overdrive ratios, and there are some with slightly better gear ratio splits.  The t5 was designed for engines with way less torque than a flathead mopar, and in many cases engines with far less horsepower. So it is a compromise.

 

That being said, everything other than the mopar overdrive which was designed for the vehicle, is going to be.

 

With a $1k budget, unless you find a 52-56 Plymouth overdrive in a scrap yard and can get it out

with the wiring, kick down switch, relay etc cheap, your going to have a hard time getting into that

snack bracket. With all the work you have already completed.  Here are some examples:

 

 

TAG  #    VEHICLE APPLICATION                     REV      1st     2nd    3rd     4th     5th 

1352-065 Ford 1984 Mustang/Capri 5.0 V8         2.76    2.95    1.94   1.34   1.00    0.63

 

1352-035 AMC 1983 Jeep CJ 2.1 L4 Diesel 2.2   2.76    2.95   1.94   1.34   1.00   0.73 

 

 

 That is not a definitive list, that I will send to you. I also want to say I am

no expert on these transmissions, so you will need to do some research to see

if they can be a direct replacement for the one you pulled out.  But for example

the Jeep (aka soon to be a Mopar) has a 2.95 1st, and a .73 5th so that may

achieve .  Your stock transmission has a 1st of 2.57,  2nd of 1.83 3rd of 1.0 and reverse of 3.48

 

Sorry if I am sounding like the t5 transmission conversion fan here, because I am definitely not that, but when you have already put all the time, effort and money into a conversion the cheapest solution may just be to find a better t5 to suit your application.

 

Now on to your other part of your post and what is really what you were looking for from me; another option.

 

So once upon a time I would have went down the road of a floor shift. The trucks I love and learned

to drive in, the car I drive every day, and even the 1st car I purchased were all floor shift models. That means I am predisposed to floor shift. I have a 1948 Plymouth Club Coupe as well as a 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe and if it was 30 years ago I would guarantee I would only be interested in a floor shift. lol   but today, my 49 is still a column shift and I could have made it a floor shift. Even with the 1952-56 r10 in it, I have a shifter my Dad made/modified to allow for the R10 to be a floor shift.  I just didn't want to loose the "floor real estate" that the floor shift took up.

 

That being said, I know many still want a floor shift and while  its not clear if that was in your

motivation, my next solution would be floor shift. Also likely not surprising it is not a Chevy or T5 solution.

 

My suggestion would be to use  a 1975-85 Mopar (aluminum case) A833 4speed transmission.

It has gear splits  of 1st: 3.09:1,  2nd:  1.67:1  3rd: 1:1   4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)

 

The high level of doing the conversion is this.  You will need an adapter plate and screws

to connect the A833 4 speed to your stock bell housing.  You will not need to grind and modify your bell housing.  You will need to change your clutch to fine spline although everything else works, even the pilot bushing is the same. On the back of the transmission you will need to change the yoke of the tranny and modify the drive shaft to accommodate the modern yoke.  Or you can

change the rear end to a more modern rear end which would give you bigger brakes and an easier solution for the parking brake.  As I know you will have had to deal with when your did the t5 conversion, when you loose your original  Plymouth 3 speed, you loose your brake drum on the

back of the transmission for the parking brake.

 

 

There is the Coles Note version of an A833 4 speed with overdrive conversion.  Depending on the model of Plymouth and year, you may need to modify the shifter leaver coming up through the floor.  We have already assisted in one project that put the A833 into a 1937 Plymouth.  Yes,

that car has the X-Frame with the loop and yes he was able to deal with that added challenge.

He had to modify the shifter so it bent left (towards the passenger side) and then again forward (toward the fire wall)  so it came up the original floor shift position in the 1937. But it fit in perfectly and to quote him - "it shifts like a dream".

 

Keep in mind the A833 4 speed I am referring to is the aluminum  cased model that came out with overdrive in 1975 and not the earlier Cast Iron model that is highly sought after by the Mopar Big Block folks.  That earlier transmission would give you the floor shift, but is 1.1  in 4th, so you get no

overdrive.

 

I will do a blog at some point on a "A833 4speed with overdrive Primer" but for now, if you or anyone else is interested you can always send me a not and we will  be happy to help.

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

   

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tim - thanks for the time you put into your response and the dose of reality contained in it. It was a lot of work, modifications and cost to put in the t5. It is clear in my head there are a lot of guys out pushing this conversion and I wished I had never listened to them. You do make a great point and I do have a lot invested already so if you could send me the chart it would be helpful.  Its clear you wouldn't recommend a t5 conversion if starting from scratch which says a lot when your recommending that I find a different t5. It speaks volumes and I respect and appreciate you recommending what may be best for my particular situation.

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I have emailed the cross reference chart to you (which can also be found on the forum under other threads). You are correct,In the end, I think the work effort exceeds the end result.

 

The t5 conversion is something I first heard of and saw 25 years ago.  It has always made me smile when the roots of the idea came from a GM guy who was looking for a 4 speed floor shift for his stovebolt. The 1st one I saw working, the guy would start off in 2nd, shift to 4th, then 5th as the gear splits were terrible. Since then I was given access to a chart showing the various splits or ratios and I can see why there is a wide range of happy and unhappy people. 

 

But having said that, since you have everything done, floor cut, bellhousing modified  and all the tough stuff done, for you, this makes the most sense to me. If you were starting from "square one" I would not recommend this route. With your budget I think you should be able to salvage your time, effort and investment and with a better split t5 should achieve the over-drive goal that I think your looking for.

 

Best of luck and keep us posted !

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I spend this evening going through the youtube videos. Absolutely amazing. Is there a series of them ?

 

This blog is without question the best thing on this site. Well done.

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thanks for dropping by "oldasdirt" and "dj194950"  It for guys like you that we/I do this and other members have been awesome in helping out.  There is a lot more to come, just need the time to organize, put it together and get it up. With a 22 foot x 38 foot room  which is the combo family library, picture area, and research spot, absolutely jammed, I have more stuff than time. But will try and work through the topics requested by the blog followers !

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First of all, let me thank you for all the great information.  I have a line on a 39 Chrysler overdrive transmission.  I read the part about the 39 having both a column and a floor shift.  I’m told this is definitely a floor shift.  I’ve printed out all the pictures to verify what I’m looking at when I go to purchase it. 

 

But my question is, will this bolt right in my 37 Plymouth sedan?  Will I have to modify the drive shaft length?  I’m just go into this with as much knowledge as possible.  Thanks, Lee

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Good find..  There were more of the 1939s that were floor shift than had the optional column shift. That tranny will slide right in where your 1937 was with no modifications to the drive shaft.  But if the guys is pulling the engine and tranny to put in a v8, hey the driveshaft likely is of no use to him and another tip.. he is likely going to pull the rear end and you may like the gear set in that

1939 Chrysler better than you Plymouth. The gear ratio should be located on the inside of the housing on a 1939. 

 

That assumes of course that it is available and you want it !

 

Tim

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Tim Thanks for all the Info. I have a  1940 Club Coupe with a 201 c.i. engine with an

Offenhouser twin carb aluminum intake and Fenton split exuast manifold. I recently aquired an R10 G1 overdrive but need to get the wiring, kickdown and relay for instalation. If You or George have a line on sources for these items Your help would be much appreciated.

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Tim Thanks for all the Info. I have a  1940 Club Coupe with a 201 c.i. engine with an

Offenhouser twin carb aluminum intake and Fenton split exuast manifold. I recently aquired an R10 G1 overdrive but need to get the wiring, kickdown and relay for instalation. If You or George have a line on sources for these items Your help would be much appreciated.

 

We have all that stuff in stock.  I will drop you a pm and for the r10 for your application, here is the wiring diagram !

 

52 56 borg warner R10 Plymouth Overdrive wiring schematic

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Great post!!!!!!!

We have a 38 Chrysler Custom. It has the straight 8 with over and it has never been apart from what I see from upstairs. I will take detailed pictures whenI take this apart. This car is being parted out. Block is missing the head and frozen. Also, have a 40 Chrysler with a 8 and OD.

38 chry 38 dodge  11-27-2012 003.JPG

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38 chry 38 dodge  11-27-2012 009.JPG

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Howdy Countrytravler -     Cool finds.  On the 38 and 40 Chrysler there are pictures of those trannys above in the spotters guide. There definitely both different from each other and if you need any information let me know.  On the customers comment on 1935-40 Dodge and Plymouths,  neither had overdrive trannys from the factory. Not USA, not Canadian, and not export models that I know of and I have a great deal of documentation.  The overdrives were Chrysler and Desoto.   Now, having said that  I have a 1941 Plymouth that was a Canadian built car.  Keep in mind that Canada entered WW2 in 1939, so there are 1939 and 1940 Plymouths, and there are some 1941 Dodges but there ar almost no 1941 Plymouths.    My grandfather's brother was a Dr and he had applied for an got a permit for a car.     He got the car, we still have the original bill of sale, the ownership and the serial numbers are match.  The car has almost no miles on it. He volunteered went into WW2 and was killed. The car was parked in a barn that was severely damaged by Hurricane Hazel in the early 50s and the car was parked in the back lane at the farm I live at now. The trees and grown around it someone has removed tires and a over the decades pieces have grown legs.     I will attach pictures.   Everyone who knows anything about Plymouths will say -  hey that is a 1946... or may call it a 1946 - 48..

It is not. The engine block cast date is Jan 10 1941.   The serial numbers on the car, the engine all match what is on the original bill of sale.  In that car is an overdrive and if your look closely in the interior there are gauging and a radio that was never offered. Its a Dr coupe and between the cabin and trunk is all wood. There is wood framing in the doors and that is 1920-30s stuff there is definitely no wood used in 1946 - 48.

I mention this because I know for a fact it is as it came from the factory, yet not in 1940-41,  not in 1946-48 were Plymouths offered with overdrives.  they 1st appeared in 1952, actually were put in cars that were coming off the line in Canada in September of 1951 and I am sure many will love to debate me on my 1941 being authentic, although trust me if that car had stayed in the barn it would be worth a fortune... as it sits, well from a family standpoint its priceless but in monetary value its not worth much.

But the point is there are examples of stuff coming from the factory that are not in brochures.   My personal believe is given my Mothers father was the GM of the Canadian Engine plant from the time it opened in 1935 and he was there until the last flathead, actually the last hemi rolled off the line, that maybe he who was born less than 4 miles from my other Grandfather whose brother bought this Plymouth, that maybe, just maybe  there was a little family connection action that got a car that just may have been a prototype that if there was no war, that may have come out in 1942.  

What I do know for a fact was the last overdrive was ordered very close to the death of Walter Chrysler in August 1940 and the last model year with overdrives was 1941.

I also know that Overdrive trannys were available at Chrysler and Desoto dealerships in the way of parts, so is it possible someone took their Plymouth or Dodge into a dealership and get an overdrive put in it, oh I guarantee it was. In fact not far from me is a 1938 dodge. It has an overdrive from it. The family thought that is was purchased with the overdrive.  My Dad's very good friend, owns today and his Dad 1st opened the Mopar dealership in Guelph in 1929.    A few decades ago, the parts guy happened to come across a bunch of old records from the dealership and going through them didn't they find the record where the 1938 dodge was repaired in 1944 and with a lack of a transmission in stock and in the midst of WW2,  an overdrive was put in the car.   Its a piece of paper the family that owns the 1938 Dodge now very much treasures.

So the long story is to say, that for most customers who thought Dodge and Plymouths had overdrives in them  from 1935 - 1940 for the most part they are mistaken. The overdrive was only offered in the Chrysler and Desotos.... BUT.....   if they pull out some documentation or a specific example would I be shocked..  No I would not.. Would I be surprised...  yes, I would but then I know that  in those days and through the 2nd world war a lot of things happened to just get by.

In any case, good talking with you and if I can help in some way, let me know

 

Tim

 

 

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  • Like 1
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That is cool. I have documentation that ODs were installed in the Dodge and Plymouth line in the UK. I have a book having that info. I will find the book and post at a later date. It is packed away at this time when we moved our shop. I posted the pictures of the Chrysler because I will take good detail pictures when I strip the car. Thanks for your input and I will keep you in the loop.

Thanks

Dave

  • Like 1
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Id love to see it as I have the 1936-40 factory documentation from the Canadian plant, and there are no overdrives in any of those Dodge or Plymouths.  Definitely in

Chrysler and Desotos and I am sure sold/shipped as parts. I cant speak to 1935.

  • Like 1
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1 hour ago, timkingsbury said:

Id love to see it as I have the 1936-40 factory documentation from the Canadian plant, and there are no overdrives in any of those Dodge or Plymouths.  Definitely in

Chrysler and Desotos and I am sure sold/shipped as parts. I cant speak to 1935.

 

The book I have is an advertisement page for the OD in the UK shipped from the US for the 30s Ply and Dodge. We have a few customers in the UK and they never saw one.

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Interesting. Would love to see it when you come across it. The only stuff I have is shipping from Canada which even in the 1930s would make a lot more sense for UK than being shipped from the USA which would have seen a tariff attached.    Even the convertibles which after 1936 were still made in the USA, shipped over to Canada from Detroit to Windsor and because the frame was made in Canada some how were exported as Canadian goods.  Ive seen a few pieces of import paperwork from guys in England with 23 1/2" USA motors in Plymouths and a couple labelled as Dodges but were basically Plymouths.

  • Like 1
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On ‎21‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 1:15 PM, timkingsbury said:

Howdy Countrytravler -     Cool finds.  On the 38 and 40 Chrysler there are pictures of those trannys above in the spotters guide. There definitely both different from each other and if you need any information let me know.  On the customers comment on 1935-40 Dodge and Plymouths,  neither had overdrive trannys from the factory. Not USA, not Canadian, and not export models that I know of and I have a great deal of documentation.  The overdrives were Chrysler and Desoto.   Now, having said that  I have a 1941 Plymouth that was a Canadian built car.  Keep in mind that Canada entered WW2 in 1939, so there are 1939 and 1940 Plymouths, and there are some 1941 Dodges but there ar almost no 1941 Plymouths.    My grandfather's brother was a Dr and he had applied for an got a permit for a car.     He got the car, we still have the original bill of sale, the ownership and the serial numbers are match.  The car has almost no miles on it. He volunteered went into WW2 and was killed. The car was parked in a barn that was severely damaged by Hurricane Hazel in the early 50s and the car was parked in the back lane at the farm I live at now. The trees and grown around it someone has removed tires and a over the decades pieces have grown legs.     I will attach pictures.   Everyone who knows anything about Plymouths will say -  hey that is a 1946... or may call it a 1946 - 48..

It is not. The engine block cast date is Jan 10 1941.   The serial numbers on the car, the engine all match what is on the original bill of sale.  In that car is an overdrive and if your look closely in the interior there are gauging and a radio that was never offered. Its a Dr coupe and between the cabin and trunk is all wood. There is wood framing in the doors and that is 1920-30s stuff there is definitely no wood used in 1946 - 48.

I mention this because I know for a fact it is as it came from the factory, yet not in 1940-41,  not in 1946-48 were Plymouths offered with overdrives.  they 1st appeared in 1952, actually were put in cars that were coming off the line in Canada in September of 1951 and I am sure many will love to debate me on my 1941 being authentic, although trust me if that car had stayed in the barn it would be worth a fortune... as it sits, well from a family standpoint its priceless but in monetary value its not worth much.

But the point is there are examples of stuff coming from the factory that are not in brochures.   My personal believe is given my Mothers father was the GM of the Canadian Engine plant from the time it opened in 1935 and he was there until the last flathead, actually the last hemi rolled off the line, that maybe he who was born less than 4 miles from my other Grandfather whose brother bought this Plymouth, that maybe, just maybe  there was a little family connection action that got a car that just may have been a prototype that if there was no war, that may have come out in 1942.  

What I do know for a fact was the last overdrive was ordered very close to the death of Walter Chrysler in August 1940 and the last model year with overdrives was 1941.

I also know that Overdrive trannys were available at Chrysler and Desoto dealerships in the way of parts, so is it possible someone took their Plymouth or Dodge into a dealership and get an overdrive put in it, oh I guarantee it was. In fact not far from me is a 1938 dodge. It has an overdrive from it. The family thought that is was purchased with the overdrive.  My Dad's very good friend, owns today and his Dad 1st opened the Mopar dealership in Guelph in 1929.    A few decades ago, the parts guy happened to come across a bunch of old records from the dealership and going through them didn't they find the record where the 1938 dodge was repaired in 1944 and with a lack of a transmission in stock and in the midst of WW2,  an overdrive was put in the car.   Its a piece of paper the family that owns the 1938 Dodge now very much treasures.

So the long story is to say, that for most customers who thought Dodge and Plymouths had overdrives in them  from 1935 - 1940 for the most part they are mistaken. The overdrive was only offered in the Chrysler and Desotos.... BUT.....   if they pull out some documentation or a specific example would I be shocked..  No I would not.. Would I be surprised...  yes, I would but then I know that  in those days and through the 2nd world war a lot of things happened to just get by.

In any case, good talking with you and if I can help in some way, let me know

 

Tim

 

 

IMG_20161012_115747.jpg

IMG_20161012_115736.jpg

IMG_20161012_115649.jpg

IMG_20160928_120530.jpg

IMG_20161012_115638.jpg

IMG_20161012_115606.jpg

Wow

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Well, I am putting an r10g1 overdrive in my 1946 P-15- Does anyone have photos of the control cable installation?

I don't know where it goes under the dash, through the firewall, etc.

Thanks

 

Ward

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38 minutes ago, Ward Duffield said:

Well, I am putting an r10g1 overdrive in my 1946 P-15- Does anyone have photos of the control cable installation?

I don't know where it goes under the dash, through the firewall, etc.

Thanks

 

Ward

Hi Ward -   

 

Its not too complex.   In 1952 they actually came out mounted on the right (passenger)  side of the steering column.   I mounted mine (like this picture) right beside the emergency brake cable.  It would have went through the firewall in several places.  I drilled a hole and used a rubber grommet and then down under the frame and hooked it on to the tranny.

Try not to turn  real sharp as the cable does need to travel   My biggest challenge was to find a mounting bracket.    The overdrive cables often dont come with mounting brackets.  Its really not too complex.    Wiring, well that can be so I would strongly suggest making sure your have a decent diagram or invest in a wiring harness from the AoK boys. That was

one of the best investments I made!

$_57d.jpg

$_57e.jpg

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Hello everyone,

 

I have an opportunity to purchase an overdrive transmission (T86 1A) for my 36 Dodge 218. Can someone please explain the way the transmission shifts into overdrive (Mechanical, Electrical or vacuum)? The pictures sent to me don't show much, it almost looks like a stock 3 speed except for the emergency brake location.

 

Thanks in advance,

Marco 

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Edited by 1936 Dodge Brothers
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Thanks to Shirley  aka  Plymouth#43 who called me to wish me a Happy New Years, and reminded me that I was supposed to put up a couple of pictures of earlier overdrives,  I have updated the  original rough spotters guide blog entry with a bunch more pictures and a little more information.  Primarily  on the mounting of the emergency brake cable with up and including 1937 was on the right side  and then for the 1938  model year the emergency brake was mounted on the left side.    Which of course was the answer to the question - "for my new 1937 overdrive should it not have a floor mounted emergency brake"  and the answer was that yes for 1937 for the emergency/parking brake was floor mounted and the mount was on the right side of the  brake drum.  Of course right side is determined when a driver  in North America is sitting in the car.  In north american that would see the driver sitting in the left side of the car and the passenger on the right hand side.    Of course if your in England,  Australia etc,  the  driver is sitting in the right side of the car, but their right arm is of course, still on the right side.     

 

In other words  labelling things as drivers side and passenger side can be problematic, but if you are thinking of sitting in the car and facing the front windshield, no matter what the configuration of the driver and passenger is, the right side is always the right side.

 

Thanks Shirley  and looking forward to seeing the 1937 soon !

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