Howdy folks -
Coming from another blog topic, which strayed down a back road, came the idea of transmissions for Mopar Cars and Trucks that were post 1940 that came with Column shift and the normally column shift transmission was modified or the linkage was to turn it into a 3 speed floor shift transmission.
So this isn't about taking a vehicle that had column shift and putting a transmission for the 1930s or a modern floor shift transmission to make the vehicle floor shift. This is taking say a 1950s r10g1 overdrive and putting it into a 1930s car or a 1950s pickup and making it a floor shift. It could also be taking a standard 3 speed column shift and making it into a floor shift in that same vehicle.
Its not a new concept by any stretch. My Dad put an r10g1 overdrive from a 1952 Plymouth into a 1951 Fargo pickup truck which had been a 3 speed column shift pickup. He had taken a Fenton floor shifter kit that was a kit to move column shifts and made a bunch of changes to get it to work. The truck is long gone but we actually recovered the shifter which had been cut off at some point by the person who got the pickup. I will take some pictures at some point for the fun of it. We got it moving again but it would be too expensive to try and duplicate. George has also built a very simplified for racing which is super simple, although I am not sure would work for regular street usage, and he also has one his Uncle Harry Hein's made but duplicating it, is a project that hasn't quite made it to the top of the pile.
We also have several pictures of guys who have done them, although most are pretty heavily involved and some quite clunky looking.
All that being said, the reason I started this was - Paul aka
pflaming had posted a picture of his project of making a traditional 3 speed floor shift Plymouth transmission, and turning it into a floor shift, which really was the impetus for this blog idea.
"The shifter I fabbed from a photo, not my design. It is uncomplicated and will serve my purposes very well. The tranny and OD are not on the engine yet."
Howdy Folks - I thought I would do an update on a few topics. 1st the most important one being my buddy George Asche Jr. George who was hospitalized a few months ago continues to be regaining his health at a rate I think everyone including he himself find remarkable. I was down last week and helped him build another engine and a bunch of other thing. He continues to work through a long list of promised work, from engines and over drives, to intake, carbs and linkage.
The last AoK racing triple intake for the big blocks was finished and shipped out. It is going on a 1937 Chrysler 6 cylinder. A very close to stock engine, with standard pistons, cam and new undersized bearings. I have enclose a picture of that as well as George finishing off a fresh engine built and one of the AoK - George Asche Jr tribute intakes for the USA Small blocks.
We down to just 1 or 2 of those .
Next topic, intake updates: As I have talked earlier, with our good friend Tom ceasing operations we had to move the casting of both the Triples for the Canadian 25 1/2" big block flathead and the USA 23 1/2" dual carb intakes. We also sadly lost the services of George long time friend Bob Stover who was responsible for the machining of the AoK triples from when we 1st started to make them over a decade ago until God gave him the checkered flag and he passed away. Moving to a new supplier also saw cost increases.
We have worked closely with both suppliers as well as looked at other options for having them cast and machined elsewhere. In the end, we were able to reduce the overall costs, and get the minimum order quantity down to the point that we are going to consider another run of intakes.
The cost of the new AoK triple intakes (for the 25 1/2" big block made in Canada) is going to go up approximately 6% and will be $525.00 plus shipping. Linkage will range depending upon what is required, but the standard 3 carb linkage with linkage that can be hooked up to linkage coming across the head will be $195.00. Carbs, are going to be a problem for us to supply rebuilt carbs. If you have cores and need them rebuilt we may be able to help. But intake and linkage we should have later this summer
On the AoK - George Asche Jr limited edition dual carb intake for the 23 1/2" USA small block they too will be just under a 6% increase and will be $450.00 plus shipping.
If your already on the waiting list and we have intakes set aside for you, your originally quoted price remains in effect for the intake.
If your interested in either, drop us a note and we will get you on our waiting list and/or be happy to discuss your project(s).
Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr
Below pictures are the AoK dual and triple intake that are being set up for the pre-WW2 cars ad all trucks, pickups and powerwagons which have linkage going down the intake/exhaust side of the blocks
Howdy Folks -
Well the good news is the new AoK dual carb intakes for the 23 1/2" USA small block flathead Mopars started going out the door last week. As well the AoK triples for the 25 1/2" Canadian Big block flathead Mopars that have been sold out for over a year are also available and shipping.
More details and what the look like on this blog entry.
The good and bad news.. Good: If your on the list for either a dual intake or a triple your covered. Your intake and if you want linkage, we will be able to supply them
at the price point discussed. Bad: well Maybe Bad: If you haven't ordered an AoK dual intake there are 7 left not spoken for and there are 2 AoK triples for the big blocks not spoken for.
After that, there will be no more at this price point that is for sure and whether we have any more made with depend on customer demand.
As well we are now out of Carter Ball and Ball cores to build, so if you need George to build you up carbs, as of right now you will need to supply cores.
Final piece of news is that if you order intakes, when paid for they can be shipped in less than a week. If you need linkage as well its up to 3 weeks lead time right now to ship and if you need carbs and haven't already ordered intakes and specified carbs, even with cores the lead time right now is at least 3 months and may be longer..
The super thing is George who just turned 85 is still doing them and is the best there is at doing them. The unfortunate part is George is slowing down and no one anticipated the new AoK intakes taking so long and the overwhelming demand for them and carbs when they were ready.
Now that they are coming out of the machine shop all completed, the shear number is overwhelming so it will take some time ..
George also has 4 Performance engine jobs promised and as of today will not be accepting any further engine rebuilds until further notice. On r6, r7 r10 Mopar overdrives, we will have to see what George has time for, and what his Sons and I can help out with on that front to be able to give anyone a leadtime.
As I and many call him, the Flathead Mopar Living Legend is still going strong, but his ability to work on customer projects outside of the family, will now be very much slowed down.
I am sure that is not a major surprise to anyone .
February 6 1932 my good friend and second Dad, the Grand Master of Flathead Mopars - George Asche was born. Yesterday was his surprise Birthday Party and today
is George's 85th Birthday! The picture below is rumored to be when George Graduated High School, but I think really that should be a diploma of future Flathead Chrysler, Desoto, Plymouth, Dodge/Fargo's mastery ! In the background is his Dad's Dodge truck which George still owns today!
Happy Birthday George!
Oh and if your wondering what George was up to for Birthday. Well - Lunch with his Boys at the shop (George III, Rob and Tim), then building some carbs up, then over to the machine shop for some consulting as the AoK dual carb intakes were rolling through 7 different station. The picture of George with the prototype and the very first one to be completed which of course is his birthday present.. lol A few pictures of the Dual Carb (23 1/2" USA small block) and Triple Carb (25 1/2" Canadian Big Block) intakes going through the steps, and being test fitted on blocks setup with exhausts so that every intake has been checked for a perfect fit.
Then it was off for Supper in Knox (Horse Thief Capital of the World) and back to George's shop and setting up tomorrows trip, which is believe it or not, were heading down to pick up George's Uncle Harry Hiens - #90 who is in the Nascar Hall of Fame. Harry lives in Mars PA. Were bringing him up to check out the AoK intakes and take George's newest 1929 Desoto for a ride!
This was my Dad's original 1938 Desoto - Plymouth Approved Service Dealer Sign.
My Grandfather had a later Desoto- Plymouth sign and a Chrysler - Fargo Trucks sign hanging on the outside of his shop, which he built after he retired from Chrysler Corporation. It was a 42" sign and of course Dad always admired it. When Grandfather passed away the signs were sold at auction and the pair sold for $18,500 and after their sale Dad almost immediately started looking for one. Years later on his first trip to our friend George Asche's he smiled when he saw George had one hanging on his garage. I took a picture of the pair of them in front of the garage and it became one of Dad and George's favourite pictures. The meeting of the Northern and Southern Flathead Mopar minds.
In any case, it would be about a decade later when Dad would finally see one come up for auction and of course it wound up costing more than did the one that sold at Grandfathers Auction.
During the lead up to the auction it came to light that dealer sign was an original 1938 sign and as we checked out the sign measured it, and then compared it to the one that sold at Grandfathers sale, there was indeed a slight difference in size. Grandfathers was 42" and this one was 45". Grandfathers, well it had made its way back to Chrysler and was on display at the Walter Chrysler Museum.
Given its age, it was in remarkable conditions when found (see picture of the pre-restoration sign) but after speaking to George who wished he had restored the enamel instead of painting its spots missing enamel, and speaking to the Curator at the Walter Chrysler museum it was decided to have it restored by the best we could find. It underwent a world class restoration on the few areas that needed attention, by the leading enamel sign restoration company, Don Van Kannel - Van Kannel Sign Restoration and it is in absolutely spectacular condition.
Sadly its restoration would take a number of years, and Dad would pass away without ever seeing it finished.
The family has wrestled with keeping it, or selling it. It had been appraised at $10,000 prior to it being restored and with the restoration cost, the imminent sale of Mom and Dad's place it really didn't make sense to keep it. So we put it up for sale and also consigned it to a large automotive memorabilia auction. We got a few people express interest, and a couple of trade offers, but nothing serious, so off it went to the automotive memorabilia auction with no reserve but a guarantee for the auction company on the minimum sale price.
As our luck has seem to have gone lately, the sign appeared to sell at the auction for well above the guarantee the auction company had provided us. But a couple of days after the auction we were told that the buyer had failed complete the sale. Grrrrrrr, what else can you say.
So the Sign today will go back up for sale, on Ebay and locally.
Here is the listing -
We have put it up for sale at way less that we have in the sign, but it needs a new home and we would really like to see it go to a new home. The asking price is $7500 and that is pretty close to a firm number. We might consider a trade for something, but it will need to be something one of the family wants, and then they will put the cash into the estate.
If you have any questions feel free to drop me a note at firstname.lastname@example.org
Thanks for your time
Shirley Muldowney's Mom, Mae Scarborough Roque passed away today, in her 100th year.
I had the chance to chat With Mrs Rogue. What a wonderful lady. How proud she was of her "little girl" putting those boys in their place on the track. In her 100th year
She had quite a life.
Our condolences to Shirley and the entire family
Mae Scarborough Roque
JANUARY 3, 1918 - JANUARY 9, 2017
· For Decades I have listened to people talk about Flathead Mopar 6 Cylinder Engines in terms of intakes, what is the best carb configuration for their particular situation.
Discussions on putting two carbs and those who claim to be sure that is too much carburation or that it will use to much fuel. Then every once in a while the discussion of 3 carbs comes up, and that almost always sparks the debate on how it would take a race motor to need it, or how the engine will bog, or run poorly. In the last 20 years with a good friend of the AoK boys coming across a huge stash of 2 barrel carter weber carbs which were designed for slant six engines, the discussion on utilizing a 2 barrel instead of two singles comes up.
I just smile, but then I know that when the stash of 2 barrel carter webers were found, its finder put them on his website as a carb for a flathead mopar. Its amazing how a market can be created and how quickly – “this is the way to go” spreads like rapid fire, without as much as any background check into something.
But 1st, let me go back to the 1st time I heard the discussion on multiple carbs vs a single multi-barrel carb, or put another way, comparing that “old technology carter ball and ball vs a modern 4 barrel carb”..
It was about 45 Years ago, when I 1st heard someone in a conversation with my Grandfather and my Dad, suggesting they knew a lot about Flathead Mopars and were sporting a 4 barrel carb on a homemade intake.
This gentleman had played with flathead Ford v8s and had came across a Dodge 2 door sedan from the mid-50s. He was suggesting he had built the ultimate flathead Chrysler Engine and he was one of those guys that whatever he had at the moment was just the best and the only way to go.
Well after my Dad explained he had far from the ultimate flathead Chrysler, and that his wife’s daily driver (my Mom) was good enough to kick his ass, Dad pulled out my Mom's pickup. It was sporting a bored out 265, with a cam, a factory dual intake and exhaust with a pair of carter ball and balls, and an a833 4 speed tranny. After a little bit of fun that really wasn't much of a contest, licking his wounds sort of speak, Mr "Ultimate Flathead Chrysler" started down the road of excuses when Grandfather shook his head and cut him off at the pass.
Grandfather like my Dad were automotive Engineers, and Grandfather literally knew more about Chrysler Flatheads than any person alive. Given he saw the very 1st flathead roll of the line in Windsor, Ontario Canada in 1935 and saw the last block cast in 1959, he had some pretty good credentials to give a lecture.
What is explained in a few minutes was not only how the flathead engine worked, but why the engine this gentleman had came with only 1 carb failed to perform.
Most think that 1 carb was put on the engine and that it has sufficient carburation for the engine, and if it needed more, Chrysler Engineers would have put more on.
On a basic level that is true, but what engineering was building was an engine to a specific HP, torque and fuel consumption target and not to get the most out of the engine, make it as efficient as possible or even have it run to anything close to 100% optimum performance.
By Optimum performance I am not talking maximum hp or maximum rpm or optimum fuel mileage on a vehicle.
Grandfather then explained that in fact when Chrysler was faced with the need to meet a 5 ton truck specification for dump/plow trucks asked for by Canadian Municipalities during the winter of 1950, that the requirement had filtered to engineering in late 1950. They developed the 265 ci motor which was 3 7/16" bore and 4 3/4" stroke and have dual carbs and dual exhaust on them, which was what was in Mom’s pickup.
Few realize that that engine actually had more hp than any other engine on the market. I will attach the picture of the poster that was on Grandfathers office at the time. I gave it to George Asche Jr years ago. In any case you can see the hot v8 mopar had in 1952 was 133 hp and the flathead 6 had more hp. As an aside Grandfather with the cam grind out of the 1952 Chrysler that engine exceeded 150 hp at the time, but given the time, energy and money that have been invested in the new Hemi v8 that was never going to see the light of day on any marketing information.
That engine and the fact it had a factory intake, immediately became a stock car favorite in the 1952 season, when Mopar dominated stock car racing everywhere it landed.
In any case Chrysler didn't just put on a second carb on it because they needed more carburation. By then Chrysler already had Carter building Ball and Ball carbs from 85cfm - 425 cfm each and we now know they had a 625 cfm carter ball and ball single barrel carb if they needed it.
The reason for two was the basic issue, some would call flaw, but Grandfather would call basic restriction to taking the engine to the next level. I say that folding back to the earlier point that Chrysler was building engine to a spec of "x" hp, "y" torque and "z" fuel consumption.
The flathead 6 build by Chrysler has 3 Siamese intake ports, each of which feed two cylinders. Setting aside the exhaust for a second, and keeping in mind that an engine is really just a giant vacuum pump, putting 1 carb in the middle of the block, basically over the middle intake port feeding cylinders 3 and 4, means that if all cylinders are the same in compression ratio and ability to create vacuum and suck in a fuel mixture coming from the carb, then cylinder 3 and 4 are going to get more fuel than the intake ports feeding cylinders 1 and 2 or 5 and 6. Yes Chrysler made intake modifications to help that, but they again were not trying to make the perfect engine, just have it meet specs required.
As a little aside if your look at intakes from the 1930s through to the 50s you will notice Chrysler Engineers raised the level of the carb. With the Dual Carb truck intake it also was raised further with governors placed under the carbs. The height of the carb mounting above the intake posts can easily be seen to rise from the 1930s to the 1950s.
Its also why if your look at some of the aftermarket dual intakes made in the 30s and compare them to say the 3rd generation Edmunds in the 50s you will notice a huge difference in height. The raising of the carbs and providing a smoother run from carb to the intake ports saw huge benefits in performance. Of course maybe buried in the story is the fact that early intake was designed for a marine application where quick rev was far more the desired trait than was torque. When the intake was moved to an automotive application you would find a quick rev with the clutch engaged, but disengaged there is a significant loss in torque and it will actually burn more fuel than a single carb.
But back to my story, if we now add the exhaust component into your stock Mopar flathead (or L-head) which depending on what year engine and what vehicle, has the single exhaust exiting at one of a few different locations. For this discussion lets say it exits at the back as does the post ww2 cars. What you find is as the cylinders push out exhaust there is almost no restriction or back pressure at cylinders 5 and 6, but there is a great deal of back pressure at cylinders 1 and 2.
So here we have the most back pressure making it tough to push away the exhaust and actually the front intake port receiving the least amount of fuel.
While the engine meets specs with no problem, its clear that if you can balance the exhaust, by having 3 exhaust cylinders exit through 1 exhaust pipe and the other three through a 2nd pipe, you can better balance the exhaust back pressure. We sort of glossed over the fact that while there are only 3 intake ports, each cylinder does have its own exhaust port. Something that changed with the introduction of the slant 6, which had 6 equal intake runners each feeding a cylinder.
Back to the flathead, if we can better distribute fuel to balance the opportunity for each of the 3 Siamese ports to get fuel, then the engine will run more efficiently.
So if you were to take a big block 25 1/2" engine, and anyone of them, not just the 265 and put the factory dual carb and dual exhaust setup on it and then put on the appropriate carter ball and ball carb on it, it will gain hp, torque and improved fuel mileage. The reason is it runs more efficient. The same takes place with the 23 1/2" USA small block which has the same intake and exhaust configuration, although slightly smaller ports.
If you take it one step further, putting 1 carb on top of each intake port, you can provide the optimum amount of fuel efficiency for the engine.
Back to our 4 barrel friend, putting on a large carb just provides a further opportunity to over fuel the center siamese intake port. When he hammered the throttle it was actually not able to burn all of the fuel in the middle two cylinders and was “bogging” ,until it could gain enough RPM to use some of the fuel.
When he was running against Mom’s pickup which had more balanced back pressure, and a better distribution of fuel he had no chance even if the engines were internally the same. Of course they weren't but that is another story.
Years later when we created the AoK triple intake, we placed the first intake on an almost rock stock 201 ci motor. It had been rebuilt stock, although required to be bored out 10 thou to clean up cylinders. Beyond that it was a stock cam, intakes etc. With 3 of the smallest CFM carter ball and ball carbs on board and headers made from a stock exhaust systems, the car ran smoother, had better acceleration and got 6 miles per gallon better highway mileage over the single carb and single exhaust. In the end, it is just a myth that you need some bored out, cammed up engine for 2 carbs and a full race motor for 3 carbs.
The reason why Chrysler didn't run 3 carbs was simple. 1) The cost of 3 carbs was no inconsequential 2) They could meet the HP, Torque and Fuel useage targets with 1 carb. The exception was when there was a time window where the dual carb, dual exhaust 265 ci motor was released, but with overhead valve v8s and Hemi's coming shortly after the multiple carb flathead life-cycle was short lived.
There is a bit more it than that. I have glossed over a bunch of the engineering parts of why you don't just put a carb directly to each intake port with no equalization tube, but I am sure you get the drift.
Unlike a v8 where you might try and make carbs progressive because your feeding a intake plenum that equally or close to equally feeding all 8 cylinders, the flathead engine has 3 intake ports each feeding 2 cylinders so progressive carbs just are not effective. On the flathead Mopar, with either 2 or 3 carbs you want them to produce the exact same fuel to feed each of the Siamese ports exactly the same. Its not progressive in terms of additional barrels or carbs, its progressive by pushing on the gas peddle.
The key is making sure both or all three carbs are identical and that you have linkage that operates all of them exactly the same.
Its a common misconception that they must be hard to keep synced. We have engines with tens of thousands of miles on them with multiple carbs and are never adjusted. George Asche's 1929 Desoto that he has owned since 1950 likely has an unbelievable amount of miles on it and likely the carbs were only touched when George has redone the engine. I own vehicles with 100,000 + miles on them and the linkage for the dual carbs has never touched. That has a lot to do with just how good Carter Ball and Ball carbs are..
We also get asked quite often about modifying the block to provide 6 intake ports, or using webers or other carbs, or running fuel injection. Dad and Grandfather with too much time on their hands, as my Mother would say, did modify a couple of engines to provide 6 intake ports. There were several intakes made including one with an 18" runner set on it, one with 6 side draft webers and one with modified hilborn fuel injection.
At the end of the day, with various levels of success, nothing seems to outperform an Edmunds triple carb intake with riser blocks and 3 matched 1952-56 Truck carbs on them and maybe with some jetting changes. Of course, since then we have developed a couple of new cam profiles and of course the AoK triple which utilizes better and modern casting technology, as well as better flow bench testing and computer modelling that neither Chrysler or Eddy Edmunds had. Have we thought about digging out the 6 intake port block that is still in Dad's shop, well yah we have, but that is another project and a blog entry for another time.
Well folks as 2016 starts to wind down we reflect on the year and what a different year it has been. It seems like just yesterday the new year started and here we are in December!
What a magical month December is. The countdown to Christmas is well under way. Santa Claus parades throughout the world. Cities and towns lit up every night with fabulous Christmas light displays. School kids and churches putting on Christmas plays and pageants. Hopefully hearing the sounds of coins and bills dropping in to the bottom of the Salvation Army red kettle drums and other charities receiving support for all the great work they do.
The elves at the North Pole working furiously to satisfy the wishes from the tons of letters arriving at the North Pole. Hockey fans counting down the days until the IIHF U20 World Junior Hockey Championship tournament begins (Had to throw in some Canadian Hockey influence here) and visions of getting your Mopar out next spring dancing in many automotive enthusiasts head.
I am sure every Mopar fan has made their list of parts they hope to find under the tree Christmas day, and I am sure a lot of good Girls and Boys will find a few Mopar related items boxed up for them. I definitely know the AoK boys shipped a lot of stuff to the North Pole recently as, well we subcontract to Santa for some of those harder Mopar items that his elves have a difficult time to make! lol
We often get Christmas cards and Christmas wishes, many come in different forms as technology evolves. Here is one of our favourites containing a lot of our favourite things - a Fargo pickup (great for hauling presents), a little Mopar Period Performances additions, and of course that it has Santa !
On behalf of the Asche family; George Jr and his sons George III & Rob, the Kingsbury family; Tim and his son Dan, collectively known as the AoK boys, we wish one and all a Very Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Years!
Finally the AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Edition Intake for the all 23 1/2" USA flathead Mopar engines has been completed and is in production.
The pictures below has prototype linkage for the 1933-1938 Cars and all trucks and power wagons.
You may notice that the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes and the production versions have a longer bar That allows for a linkage bar to come down from each carb to the common rail. It does shows how the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages. That is critical for the earlier cars and trucks. You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings" for linkage mounts.
For newer cars where we want the linkage rail mounted on the inside, there are inside "wings" that are drilled and the rail is then on the inside wings. The outside block will then just be the serial number plate. Early cars and trucks are different in that they are on the outboard side of the intake, but they also have different connection points for the carbs to the common rail as compared to later model cars..
George has the linkage working perfectly for the several different applications. If you are going to be using this on the truck or older car you would just use your stock brackets and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it, to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side. In the production version, we have got the writing of "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" turned around and in a different font than the prototype.
There were a couple of minor changes to the prototype, including making the outboard linkage mounting block slightly bigger, changing the name and a couple of internal items. Today the 1st batch of production intakes are being poured. That process will continue for the balance of the week, they are heat treated and shipped to us. We need to have the casted intakes machined, tapped and threaded which should see the 1st intakes ready to ship in the next 4-6 weeks.
* Dec 3rd note: That casting turned out to be 1 being cast with the slight change talked about above. That one was heat treated and shipped to us. We called back and said why did you just ship us only 1. The reply, they wanted to be really sure it was correct. They were given the go to cast a production run and more of our Big Block Triples which have been sold out for months. They have no been all cast and are off for heat treating on Monday.
The intake has been a long time coming, even more so given the prototype was completed almost a year and a half ago.
Now - down to the brass tacks as my Grandfather would have said - Cost !
Feb 8 2017
Were committed to the pricing of $425 for the 1st shipment as we feel customers have waited a long time patiently for the product and that was our original We will be repricing them upwards slightly as the development cost and the casting price has escalated well beyond where the estimates were when we started. Just the casting price is up 73% which is an increase in the price of the aluminum.
For linkage, if customers want us to make them linkage, it will start at $150 and really depends on what linkage is required. By that I mean if a customer needs linkage for a 1933 Desoto, and if they don't have the linkage block tab, we can get that piece and will sell it at our cost, but it is a relatively expensive part. If the customer has theirs and most do, then we will clean theirs up and paint it for them at no extra cost. If its linkage for a 1946-48 Plymouth, then it is very straight forward.
Built carter ball and ball carbs are $195.00 each and the will be Siamese twins, meaning they will be exactly the same in their venture, throttle bore sizing and jetting, with all new kits in them and if a customer buys the entire package, George will mount the carbs, linkage, adjust everything and the customer wont have to pay anything extra for that or the carb gaskets. * Note if you already ordered your intake with carbs, the price quoted you is still in effect, even though the cost of full rebuild kits just went up significantly.
Shipping is extra and is at cost, or the customer can use their shipping preference and if they have an account utilize that. We don't charge for packing or handling.
Our address is George Asche/Tim Kingsbury 1693 fertigs Road, Fertigs, PA 16364
I can be reached directly at Fargopickupking@yahoo.com and we will accept
paypal if it is send via family and friends so were not paying the paypal fee as there
is literally no margin on these 1st batch of intakes. We will also accept a cheque, money order or if your
driving by, cash!
A few notes:
1) We will also be receiving a small number of the AoK triple intakes for the Canadian 25 1/2" big blocks. They have been sold out for over a year now so if you were looking for one of those we will be able to ship finished triples by year end. Cost for those is $495 and linkage pricing depends on what your using it for and what linkage is required but typically ranges from $150-$200.
2) Headers made from OEM exhaust manifolds are available for both the USA small blocks and the Canadian big blocks. The last picture is from my 1949 Plymouth Business coupe which has a Canadian 265 ci motor in it and the AoK Triple. Its the same basic look for either the 23 1/2" small block or 25 1/2" big blocks.
3) We now have a source for reproduction GMC (not the Chevy versions with major air restrictions). You can get replacement air filters for them and they are available in Chrome tops or Black. The Black versions are $125.00 and Chrome ones are $138.00. You can see them here in a video posted by Fred Buhay.
4) The Big Note to be aware of: We expect to be able to ship finished intakes early next week, but there is not some big pile of built carbs or linkage sets made up and ready to ship and George hand makes every piece of linkage and rebuilds every carb completely from top to bottom. So if your looking for linkage or carbs or both, on top of an intake, get your order in early as I expect to see a big back log in short order. To date we have note taken orders or money, but have put people on a waiting list. Everyone on that waiting list were alerted 48 hours ago and right now 1/2 of the 1st production run has been spoken for. There is no fear that we will be unable to get people intakes, but the question of when we can supply is potentially a question.
Finally if you would like us to call you and answer questions about either intake, we are happy to. Just drop me an email to email@example.com with your phone number and when is a good time to contact you and George or I will give you a call.
below is the AoK triple on my 1949 Plymouth Business Coupe.
Folks - I started to write this note on Monday on what was the 80th Birthday of my good friend, George Asche's wife June's 80th birthday. June has been in extremely poor health for the last 14 months and has surpassed all of the medical experts estimates. The last few weeks have been a struggle but when I dropped by to visit with flowers as I have done for now close to 20 years, she smiled, thanked me and tried hard to carry on a conversation. She was a very cool lady. She was both extremely talented musically as she was up to Nascar races and what Mopar projects were going on around the AoK world.
So I started my blog entry to pay tribute to the lady who called me her third son, which always got a both smile from both of us as I would say, I am always proud to be your oldest son, even if I was your last child..
Well, Monday was her 80th birthday and on Monday we started the celebration of her life as God called her home on her birthday. I apologize as I should have put up notification of her passing, but I just wasn't feeling up to it. On Wednesday evening there was a celebration of her life and the outpouring of love and support was incredible to see.
At the end of the evening the count of the people who visited, was some how appropriate, being the magical Mopar number of 426!
Thursday was her funeral service and it was a terrific service appropriate for just how special June was. It was an overflow crowd and was followed by a reception at the local church with enough food to feed a large army.... and I am not kidding.
Here was the notice in the paper.
For those wondering how George is, I would say this. George and June have been married 60 years later this month. The loss of a spouse is a life changing event, but I know George well and he is at peace that his beloved June is today in a better place. June, like George was born again, and all of the family and close friends know that while June's time on earth has ended, her impact will go on forever and she is with God today, and likely either playing a guitar, piano, or watching a Nascar or NHRA race in heaven. George who was at June's side in the end as he has been on a constant basis during the last chapter of her life, I think finally got his 1st full nights rest in over a year this week.
For those wishing to send a note to George, since I was asked today, George's address is 1693 Fertigs Road, Fertigs PA, 16364
In this sport its funny how many times ones path crosses with a kindred spirit, This blog entry is of just such a person, whose daily driver, and I do mean year around daily driver, got another performance improvement. Not its first and not its last.
Proud to have a good friend of the AoK boys document his baby's latest performance update.
Here we go - As Fred started out -
"Hey all, had a suspicious package arrive today at the local Canada Post Office inside the General Store. Much to my thrill, a AoK Asche Dual Intake/exhaust, BBI carbs, and a A833 adpater plate was in the box, T5ers eat your hearts out.. Now the big plan for phase 1, pull stock manifolds, clean up engine paint and make all nice and purdy. The new duals will be installed, with George Asche carbs and linkage, these are the large cfm truck carbs too. Hope to get a lot more punch out this old 238 engine, gonna be kool. The A 833 trans, have 1 in the wings, not sure how well it will be with my current 3.23 gears, but do think it should be just fine. I am not sure if I will be pulling the head, and having it shaved, but that is a possibility. The final plan at some future point is the ultimate 265 hot cam, shaved head, will definitely push this little old Fargo along real nicely...."
As suggested by Captain Fred in his blog entry on his 1940 Plymouth build, he wanted something done on cams.
Well, that can be quite a topic, and while you can find all kinds of article on the "inter-web" on how cams work in an engine, my goal is to put a Flathead Mopar slant on the topic.
Of course as my Grandfather used to say, an engine is nothing more and a large vacuum pump. Your cam turns lifting up intake valves, as pistons are being turned by a crank and that creates a vacuum. The vacuum sucks in whatever is near by into the engine. The cam turns a little further, closing the intake valve, we "light a candle" to whatever is in then in the cylinder and after what we hope is a controlled explosion, the cam turns a little further lifting exhaust valves and those pistons coming up push out whatever is left out of the engine..
In the V8 world a great deal of people used to think that making power, aside from the "no replacement for displacement" concept was putting in a wild cam. As time went by in the racing world, while the cam was important, we know it is the heads that are a much bigger factor to the V8 world. Sure superchargers or turbo chargers, trying to jam more stuff into the cylinder and the type of fuel you use for your controlled explosion also became a big factor, but in the world of cam vs heads it is the heads that lead that world.
In the flathead Mopar world, fuel isn't entering via the heads, and so it is definitely a cam that leads this world over the heads.
Next lets talk about stock lift and duration and even there, Chrysler Corporation made a huge number of cam profiles so the second I toss this out here, its easy for someone to say - "my stock cam is different" and yes I know that.
But in high level terms, a cam has two major factors and a few lesser factors. Lift and most of the p15-d24s were a 375 lift and then duration. Lift is how high the cam lifts the valve from its closed position, and duration is the degrees of the 360 degree circle that it keeps those valves open. In other terms how high we lift the valves and for how long we keep them open, whether intake or exhaust valves.
Again high level - you are limited by how high you can lift the valves in a flathead by the head. Lift the valve too high and it hits the head. On the duration side, there becomes a point where you have kept the valves open too long and it starts to effect the actual vacuum level in your engine. Remember again, a big vacuum pump. as we open and keep open valves we loose the seal on the vacuum. Of course we do that because we want to get and fuel and air mixture into the engine.
The change in duration also does things to the torque curve on your engine, but that is a whole different level of the discussion and I am trying to keep this more on the basic side.
Again in general if we keep the intake valves open longer and lift the intake valves higher, we get the opportunity to get more fuel/air into the engine. More fuel and air, and yes, clearly effected by the compression ratio, the more "bang" when we ignite the mixture with the spark plug firing.
Now, in the cause and effect department, generally as we raise up the valves higher (aka the lift) and hold those valves open longer (increased duration) we tend to change the rpm idle and things become what most of us call "lumpy". In the good old mopar v8 days of the 1970s I am sure lots remember pulling up to the lights with a guy running a "cammed up" motor and it was idling rough, shaking, coughing an weezing and yes that was also how the timing was set, but it was the duration of the cam that was causing that. When the light turned green and they hammered it, assuming the timing was set correctly, the goal was for that high lift cam to allow for a lot more fuel to get into the engine dramatically raising the RPM and turning the lumpy idling engine into a smooth running race engine.
Yes I am isolating and slanting this entire discussion towards cams, when timing can also be a huge factor. No better example being when Big Daddy Don Garlitz was forced to use a 426 hemi after they actually ran out of 392 hemis. He couldn't get the 426 to run as well, and out of frustration he advanced the timing way way beyond what anyone would have thought would work. In fact Don often tells the story that he intended to blow the "blanking" thing up. But as the engine rev'd up that advanced timing suddenly brought out the inner Monster of the 426 Hemi and all of a sudden the 392 Hemi was obsolete in Don's mind!
Back to our cams and remembering that the generation of car cams we are talking about were 375 lift. There are two school of thoughts on creating high performance cams. 1st is to raise the lift gradually and some pretty famous high performance cams raise the lift to 380 an and then increase the duration to 242 degrees. The 2nd is to raise the lift up as extreme as we can and also increase the duration. in the 1950s a pretty famous performance cam used a 400 lift. and 250 degrees of duration.
The other factor without diving into the details to much, is what I call the split. A great deal of cams have the intakes open and the exhaust close at exact same time, but some use a split. So for example an Esky 3/4 miles cam the intake opens intake valves at 20 degrees and closes them at 50 degrees and the exhaust opens at 57 degrees and closes at 13 degrees.
The Schroller full race cam - again a stock car racing - Higher lift and increased duration the Intake - has the intake valves open at 18 degrees and closes at 54 degree. The exhaust opens at 54 degrees and closes at 18 degrees.
If you are using a turbo or a blower, you often want a period of time (number of degrees) in which the intake is close and the exhaust hasn't yet opened, or visaversa.
The age old question is of course - so how much lift can I have before the engine sounds like it is misfiring. Almost always visions of those 1970 v8 engines coughing and wheezing are the reason for thing that. In reality the flathead just doesn't really act like a great deal of those badly timed, over cammed engines.. lol The reality is in the flathead world it is more a case of the rpm rises at idle than it is about it sounding like the 1970;s v8.
Of course most want a cam that sounds like it is rock stock, idles like the engine isn't running, but then they want a Top Fuel Monster to come alive when they hit the throttle. That becomes a delicate balance and is always a compromise.
So lets talk extreme. Maybe there is a wilder cam out there, but if there is we have never seen it. Ill keep the origins of this cam a little bit of a mystery, but the cam we use in the Velociraptor is the most extreme cam we know of. I chuckle these days as this phrase that seems to be in vogue again, but decades ago my Grandfather used to refer to a car that had this cam as "The Hot Mess Express".
Today we call if the AoK Velociraptor Grind . It is tough to get it to idle below 22-2300 rpm and we have with a ton of work have actually gotten our dragster to idle around 2000 rpm. It will wind up to North of 7200 rpm. You can run an engine on alcohol and will need 3 carbs and need to shift to 6 exhaust pipes for at least 42", to get it to run properly. Its lift is are you ready, 446 and its duration is 280 degrees. At this point we definitely have issues with vacuum and it would be extremely rough at idle, thus increasing the RPM just to get it to idle. For those that figure that isn't possible, by reply is gather up and bring all the cash you can find, because I am happy to say - "How much would you like to bet!".
Now from the extreme, to lets say a mid-50s truck cam which topped out around 3600 rpm, becomes the topic where many recipe's for performance have been made. Some by Chrysler Corporation for everything from cars, to boats, to combines and even Massey Harris 101 Super tractors powered by Chrysler Flatheads. The later were built for high torque and low rpm, which is great for plowing a field, but achieving a high way speed, not so much!
Today I think we have a catalogue of around 25 cam profiles. Of those we have cam patterns that we use , made for about 6 or 7 cams and of those, the number drops down to 3 or 4 for most engine builds. I think right now among the Kingsbury motorized items we have 14 different cams in use. In the Asche fleet of motorized items I am going to say they have 7 different cam profiles. The major difference, lol, yes I have more junk... I have a marine version, several truck versions, a combine, a water pump, a welder, a compressor which actually uses 4 cylinders to run the engine and 2 cylinders to make air, and an engine that used to be in a certain motorcycle.. lol.. Oh and I have an actual cam from a tank engine, but it isn't in an engine. I could make a pattern if someone ever needed one !
For Fred's engine, we used what many call an Esky 3/4 race cam. The 3/4 stands for stock car racing on a 3/4 mile long track.
This is what I today call, a fairly mild cam and we likely sell the most of these. I suspect part of that reason is as I talked about earlier, that people think back to those lumpy, poorly idling v8 engines with wild cams.. The .380 lift cam is going to give Fred 4500 rpm quickly. Its been around a long time and has a quicker rev over stock and was used historically for stock car racing. As you can likely figure out by reading this thread so far, we likely sell the most of these because most guys think they want power..... but..... they want to start it and not hear the engine running or running like a sewing machine. Tons of guys call this cam a race cam.. For me, its far from that. The tech side = 242 degrees of duration and .380 lift
Finally I will end the cam conversation for now, with the cam I am using in my 1949 Plymouth. It is what I call a little lumpy but still very much streetable and no, it is nothing like a 1970s over cammed v8 with bad or good timing..
lol but it is definitely aggressive, with a .435 lift and 258 degrees of duration. This cam was developed from tweeking a full race cam through the 1950s and 1960s and was what Harry Hein #90 (NASCAR hall of fame) used at the end of his career. Harry who is still alive would be the uncle of one George Asche Jr. The intake valves open at 20 degrees and close at 58 degrees, while the exhaust opens at 58 degrees and close at 20 degrees.
I hope that helps a little Fred, without confusing things too much!
Now what is in that Engine of yours, I can not confirm or deny what was originally put in the engine is what is in it now.. Who knows what happens in the middle of the night in George's shop... Only the shadow, or in this case the 1929 Desoto knows for sure.. lol
Well The Monster Lives... again..
As I hinted in past blog entries I knew and know where the legendary Plymouth Motorcycle is. I was in touch with its owner Louie Fisher a few years ago after he had acquired the motorcycle along with a buddy from the Dean Hensley estate back in 1992.
They had actually taken it to a couple of antique motorcycle meets in the early 90s and eventually took the big plunge to restore it. Recently they have taken the project from a basket case with no viable drivetrain, to the point where I can say - "The Monster Lives Again!"
I was excited to see the Legendary Plymouth Reporter - Jim Benjaminson with an updated article on AllPar and with it some pretty current pictures.
Here is the link to the article: Enjoy!
If you hadn't read my earlier blog entries on the Worlds Fastest Flathead Motorcycle, here is the link to the 1st parts of the series:
We are excited to have Fred from Germany give us a peak into his project, the one and only "Das Boot"!
This will be a step by step documentary about swapping the stock 23" drivetrain of a 1940 USA model to a modified 25" block with overdrive trans and 3.54:1 rear end. There will be lots of pictures and hopefully a nice discussion. Please feel free to chime in.
As tossed out there by the Fast Fargo Flash from western Canada, here is hoping Captain Fred will update us on his upgrade on his Mopar designed to go after those Ford and Chevy boys in Germany!
And when those Model T speedsters and Chevy Babbet Bearing drivers challenge you... Who you going to call ?
Ghost busters.. . nah.. not this time..
AoK to the rescue..
We hear from people regularly who want another opinion on something, or feel the general forum doesn't fit their needs because they want to ask - where can I buy ???? Or is "$x" to much for this or that.
This is not a replacement for the buy and sell section of the forum, and for what it costs it is hugely under utilized. But if you maybe need a picture of a part you want to use to put up on that section asking to buy one, maybe we or a member can help you with it.
Post away and we will see if we can get you some help.
We maybe delete and restart this thread if it goes stale, but will try and provide folks a fair amount of rope.
Hi guys -
As covered on the earlier blog entry, we have an adapter kit that allows you to bolt up a modern A833 floor shift overdrive on to your
stock bell housing. Please read this blog as it covers a lot more details.
We recently got a new supplier, and have kept the aircraft grade aluminum. The have drilled and bevelled holes for the flush mount
and come with the appropriate bevelled bolts, and have threaded holes were required. The truth is we could have done these at a fraction of the
price if we had done them in steel, but from weight to corrosion, we decided just to do these like the originals we made a number of years ago.
As George Asche says, if we cant make Grade A stuff, I don't want our name (AoK) associated with it! Lol..
They are in stock right now and they are $140 USD each (adapter plate and bolts) shipped anywhere in the Continental United States.
A 2nd, 3rd or 4th adapter plate would be $125 USD each and all go in the same box, so you save the shipping on the additional plates by a combined shipment.
We got them in this week and have already started shipping adapter plate to those who were on a waiting list. Thanks to those who have been patiently waiting.
** We have recently been asked if the adapter plate will work on trucks. The 1st response being what truck and what transmission is in it now. We know of conversions that have been made, but they were all in late 50s pickups that had light 3 speeds with car style bell housings.
*** Nov 21 - In addition to the car bell housing there are several bell housing in trucks. We will take 4wd and heavier trucks with 5 speeds out of the mix here. We believe that believes us with 3 bell housing patterns from the late 30s to the late 50s. The one with the car style bell housing , 3 speed column shift our current adapter plate should work.
For the heavier 3 speed or light 4 speed both floor shift, the bell housing is the one at the top of the attached picture, which has 2 holes equally spaced on the right and left of the bell housing.
For this one we are going to develop adapter plates for.
The other bell housing pattern is the ones at the bottom of the attached picture. It has the 2 bolt holes on the right closer together
than on the left side. This is for the heavier 4 speeds in heavier trucks. While it looks like you can use our existing adapter plate, by drilling 4 holes, tap them and use our adapter plate, we have not actually tried it. At this point unless there turned out to be a demand for them, we don't intend to make new adapter plates for this bell housing / the heavier trucks at this point.
The reason being, we really need to make a minimum of 10 pieces, and to make the price reasonable 25, so unless there
is a demand we don't anticipate it doesn't make much sense to make them for the heavier trucks.
* Update: The adapter plate is completed for the trucks now.
Pricing is for the car version, in the continental United States the adapter kit (plate and bolts) are $140 shipped and truck adapter kits are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping. If you want 2-4 plates they can be shipped in the same box so you save the shipping on those additional plates.
As usual happy to accept emails or give you a call to discuss.. Let us know if you are interested in either truck version.
I was asked if I could start a Nostalgic Chrysler Flathead Racing thread.
Of course, Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto, Fargo and Chryslers are all clearly included as are things like a friend of the families who have a Flathead Chrysler in a Model T Ford.. If it has a Mopar Flathead in it, well it likely belongs here.
Of course from Stock Car to Drag Racing, Walter Chrysler's engineers have had their fingers in the racing pie pretty much since the birth of the Chrysler Corporation.
Along the way the "up and coming" Flathead Chrysler earned its reputation for taking on and blowing away the competition with V8's and more.
Along the way, I hope this becomes a spot those who once had closely guarded secrets on how they got a "little more" out of their Flathead Mopar might finally tell all..
I know from the AoK racing family the 50s were the start and the golden age for George Asche and Eddy Kingsbury. George who in the 50's would campaign his 1929 Desoto, powered with a highly modified 265 Chrysler in the famed "Flying Mile" on Daytona beach where he would go undefeated. George raced V8's and even a v12, in a competition that say a big Chrysler Hemi. In the end George whose top speed was 142 mph.. Yes 142 mph would become the gold standard at the Flying Mile that season. While there is no longer Drag Racing on the beach, George still owns the 1929 Desoto, and it still has no problem meeting all the speed limits in North America.
On the north of the 49th Parallel flathead racing say the building engines driven by some legendary stock car racers, among those the Legendary Jimmie Howard who was one of the 1st Canadians whose full time job was racing stock cars. That also saw the very 1st multi-carb car in stock car racing history, when Wellington Motors in Guelph Ontario received their 1st "nudge nudge wink wink" dual carb, dual exhaust manifold set that went onto a stock car in the spring of 1952. Armed with the Chrysler Engineering parts Manual supplied by my Grandfather, my Dad waited for inspect to defend the usage of the dual car and dual exhaust combination as it technically met the rules of the day.
So as promised.. here is the start of the blog entry..
If you wish, post away.. if you want to email me stuff that you want me to post on your behalf or as part of the blog, feel free to send them to me at - firstname.lastname@example.org
Howdy Folks -
Well while we are awaiting the first lot of intakes to be cast George has been busy working on various linkage combinations.
Here is the 1st look close up of the finished prototype AoK dual carb intake for 23 1/2" USA flathead mopars. This one has - prototype linkage being developed for trucks or 1933-1938 Cars
Notice the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes It shows how
the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages.
You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings" to linkeage mounts on the outside. For newer cars where we want the linkage
rail mounted on the inside the inside "wings" will be used and the outside block will just be the serial number plate.
Of course the final linkage for older cars and trucks, will have a longer linkage bar and the same connection to the carb as you will
see on the right carb. Of course on the carbs you will see a mounting spot for cars and for trucks. They actually connect in two different spots.
I can tell you George has the linkage working perfectly. You would just use your stock brackets for trucks and older car applications and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent
was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.
Oh and the cat is out of the bag, as the prototype wasn't supposed to have the name on it yet.. lol.. so lets say George was a little surprised
as he didn't authorize his name on it.. That one I own although he smirked and lets just say he appreciates the tribute!
so the "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" intake development is pretty much complete.
Well folks its back from the machine shop and for the last prototype before production it is awesome!
Here are a couple of pictures.. The intake is designed to be able to accommodate a linkage bar on the inside or outside of
the intake, as well as a casted section for truck usage, which will double as a spot for a serial number. We will try and early this
week get an eta on getting the 1st batch, as well as George will make up a set of linkage and we will try and get a shipping
price for anywhere in the USA. Shipping to other locations we will have to get the shipping estimate on a case by case basis.
But the intake is $425, that is machined and ready to bolt on & $150 - $200 if you want our stainless linkage + shipping. So linkage will
require you to reuse part of your linkage setup. Primarily trucks and pre WW2 vehicles.
Its been a long time coming folks, but it is ever so close !
Thanks for everyone's interest and patience!
In this chapter: Its locked down, who knows and who cares how much HP it has, its time to take this puppy to Toronto International Dragway ! Lol.. the NHRA 1/4 mile track, not the now Toronto International Airport !
What had started off as a young guys spotting a dream car in a junk yard, had really become the ultimate family project in my family . Really made possible by my Dad, and both Grandfathers playing significant roles, as did a great deal of the family. I fully realize without the support of my Mom and Grandmothers in the background, the project would have long ago ground to a halt!
By its initial completion I think all of my relatives were aware of the project and many had contributed. I likely also used up all my birthday and Christmas presents for a decade along the way.
Heck even my 1st cousin got involved. She and her friend came over washed and waxed the car without my knowing. They had just left a note with a smiley face on it and a note "Finally clean and ready to roll! Don't forget to take your favourite cousin for a ride.. hint hint!"
My Dad had spent what I thought was a lot of time "tuning the elephant" as he would say. I am to this day still suspicious he was just delaying the launch date until he had a day off.
One Saturday morning which was really only a couple of weeks after the interior had been put in, Dad said to me - "want to go for breakfast with grand-dad. I said sure. I walk out got in his pickup and he yells as he is coming out of the house, to move the truck out to the road. I remember like it was yesterday thinking what does he want to do that for. I moved it out and came back to the house as he had went back in the house. We had a garage that was integrated into the house and had bedrooms over top of it. Usually Mom's car was in one side and there was "stuff in the other bay" What I didn't realize is Dad had brought up the Challenger and parked it in the garage. It seems everyone else in the village did.
Dad heard me come back in the house and yelled from the garage, - "I am down here, lets take this one"..
I remember thinking, take what one, Mom's car? Why would be want to take that. I walked down and there with the garage door rolled up was Dad sitting in the passenger seat of the Challenger..
Wow.. talk about a kid at Christmas.. I walked over opened the drivers door and said - "when did you sneak this in here" and who cleaned it?" He smiled, handed me the note my cousin left and in I got.
I had heard it run what seemed like a hundred times, and even sat in it and fired it up many times, but today it seemed to be a little different.
As the starter engaged and the elephant came alive, it was like she was finally ready to get out of the cage. I remember it seemed like it barely turned over when it flashed up and as I feathered the gas peddle and let it warm up you could hear the power. I pulled off the emergency brake and off we went. Pretty much with my foot on the clutch, the other on and off the brake all the way out the drive, down an incline and down to the stop sign.
I am not sure who had the biggest smile on their face, Dad or myself, but I do know it took a lot of restraint not to lite it up right there. But I turned right, let the clutch out and barely above an idle, drove it the couple of blocks to the main street. I looked both ways, and as I turned left onto the main street, I heard Dad say "flash it up a bit" which was coincidental as it was straight and pointed down main street I put my foot into it. Oh my god did it go. The front tires came up, the back wheels broke loose and the monster under the hood came alive.
Its about 730 on a Saturday morning, and I am launching the Challenger on the main street of Rockwood. Its a sleepy little village with 995 people at the time, and everyone knows everyone, believe me. The speed limit is at the time 30 mph and well I may have been slightly above that as I shifted into 2nd opened it up for about 10 seconds, and then had to shut it down for the up and coming stop sign!
I looked over at Dad, he was looking at me, both smiling, and he just pointed his finger forward. I took it pretty easy as he rolled out of town and I was wondering if I was fouling the 16 spark plugs(2 per cylinder) as I was moving barely over an idle going out of town.
As we hit the edge of the town, and the ironic sign "Rockwood Settles here", which is ironic as the cemetery is right beside the sign, I down shifted from 3 to 2nd, and hammered it. The front tires came off the ground, the back tires were lite up and the smoke was rolling out the wheel wells and we were off. The front end came down straight and I never took my foot off the throttle, until the revs hit the red line and I speed shifted it into 3rd and again the tires broke loose momentarily. It was pedal to the floor and we may not have had wings but we were flying. Into 4th and I back off as the speedometer was well north of the speed limit.
Dad looks over and says to me - "ok its officially broke in, so you can stop babying it! Butttttttt if your going to drive it like you stole it, we best take it to the strip!"
And so the seed was planted.
We went down and picked up Grandpa Kingsbury who had really long ago finished breakfast. He literally would be up before the crack of dawn, and would have a half a days work done and breakfast made and eaten by 730am. We got down to the farm and he was sitting out on the front porch. He could hear us coming for likely 2 miles but sat there and seemed to enjoy us rolling up the lane. I said, "do you want to drive Grampa" and he chuckled and said, "nah there maybe too many police out." Dad had gotten into the back seat behind me and was wedged in with his feet over to the passenger side because Grandpa was well over 6 foot 6 and with his long legs had the seat all the way back and it well tilted into the back. The Challenger definitely was only a slight step up to a Plymouth business coupe when it came to 3 generations of Kingsbury's in the car. At 6 feet and 225 at the time, I was definitely the smallest member of the family in the car as we headed off to Guelph for breakfast.
I don't remember a lot of the trip in, but I do remember as we pulled into the restaurant's parking lot, my Grandfather Bolton had his car parked right at the front door. During breakfast as more and more of Dad's buddies or employees or Grandfather Bolton's friends arrived it was clear this was well planned. There were no cell phones or instant messaging in those days. Heck, both Grandfathers were on a party line telephone service still in the 1970s.
What started off as Breakfast turned into a 1 car,car show with us sitting at the front window and Dad or one of the Grandfathers out doing a show and tell with the car hood up. After breakfast Grandfather Bolton says something to the effect of "lets talk her out to the strip" and he lead us out to the edge of Guelph where a good friend of his owned the private air strip. I remember thinking there is not a chance they are going to let me take my car out on the strip, but hey I was just driving. We drove in the airport and up close to the middle of the track was and still is a little restaurant. In we went for coffee and as we were being given a table by the window, Grandfather was walking right past the employee only sign, through the kitchen and into the office that was in the back where the owner of the airport spent his Saturday mornings.
Out he came with Grandfather and both sat down and we had coffee. A few minutes went by and he looked over at my Dad and said - "well Eddie, so your boy has a new race car I hear". I cant remember exactly what Dad responded with, but the conversation soon turned to maybe having a little match race down the strip against his Sons Corvette.
His son had a 1967 corvette with a 427 in it. the engine was built by the local speed shop and had a big blower coming through the hood a couple of holley carbs and some crazy velocity stacks on top of that. It looked like something out of a cartoon.
They had a few planes scheduled to take off or land in the next 40 minutes but after that there seemed to be a window.
I just sat there at listened. Heck the car wasn't on the road for 1/2 a day yet and were talking about drag racing it. Dad looked over at me at one point and said, well what do you think. You want to take it out for a tuneup and see what we have. I do remember saying something like - "well if you think we should be really racing it, and if you think I can handle it, I guess".
I do remember him saying back to me that given how I handled it so far, and given the airstrip is real wide, there should be lots of room and he wasn't remotely worried about the engine.
So an hour later we roll out onto the air strip for an old school start and a car parked down the strip at the 1/4 mile marker. To be honest I had seen his son drive the Corvette through Guelph many times, and even had him come up to the lights beside me when I was on my motorcycle. The Vette ran like a complete ****-house with some wild cam and questionable ignition system that seemed more like it was missing more times than it was firing at low idle.
It really wasn't much of a race, as despite the Vette leaving the line early, I was going by him in 1st gear as it was sounding more like a hit and miss motor than some high performance drag racing car, and when I crossed over the 1/4 mile marker he was 30or 40 car lengths behind me. It really wasn't close.
He wanted a rematch and his Dad who owned the strip said, ok but this time if your tires start moving before my flashlight goes on your disqualified and paying for Tims fuel for the next month. This time he most certainly didn't leave early but about the time I hit 3rd I looked in my rear view mirror and couldn't tell if he had left the line yet or not he was that far behind. I crossed over the finish line and I could see him coming behind me, but he was a long long way back. We all wound up back in the airpark restaurant and not only did the owner shake my hand, but he also said to me if I ever needed any high test aviation fuel that all I had to do was drop by to see him and then directed me to take the car over and fill it up on him, before we left !
To say I had fun with the car was an understatement. There were more than the odd guy wanting to run me across the lights, but the reality was there was nothing even close to touching it. It could pass anything but the gas station, and I pretty much always had the trunk 5 gallon gas cans as it was pretty fussy about what fuel it ran on, and 105 octane fuel wasn't just on every corner.
The car was definitely not a daily driver and the reason was strictly because even with a great part time job, that seemed me really working 40 hours a week while I was going to school, I just couldn't afford the fuel to drive it all the time.
It wasn't long before Dad and I wound up with the car at Toronto International Dragway. The strip has officially closed as an NHRA track but there was still Friday and Saturday night racing taking place and Dad knew the manager Ted Bosma. There was pretty much everything short of top fuel and jet cars at the track and there were no sunday racing.
We would drive the car to the track, change the back tires to slicks, and away we went. The licence for the dragstrip to operate seemed to have major restrictions. So some how Dad got us in to do a bit of testing early so for several Fridays we got there at 4pm and were able to get a few passes. Then came my chance, we were in a Modified Stock class and honestly I am not sure what the restrictions were. I know there were no blowers, and they were always checking the block casting #, but it didn't seem to be an issue with obviously nonstock heads and 2 distributors. Nor did they seem to be testing fuel, or at least not that I remembered.
I have a ton of Friday night and Saturday afternoon drag racing stories, tons of pictures, time tickets and pictures of some pretty famous drivers who Dad worked for or with at some point that happened to drop by the track to see "the kid". On thanksgiving weekend we had a record 95 degree day with humidity that was approaching 100%. Dad had swapped out in carbs, and components to run Alcohol and in a cross over class race with the Pro Stock winner, the Challenger is 9.95 seconds 135.07 MPH in the 1/4 mile to break the 10 second barrier.
Remember this is well before electronic boxes, and this is a 4 speed car, so back in the day, breaking the 10 second barrier was quite a feat. It also got the attention of the tech crew chief.
Shortly after Toronto International would shut down as subdivisions crept ever closer and the one time country side drag strip that was one of the 1st to see Jet cars rocket down the track, quickly become under major attack by local politicians and just about as quick faded into the history books. Despite being encouraged by a number of well known drivers and racing teams, probably for the best I didn't pursue the lure of a career in drag racing. Lol... that doesn't mean that I don't have a signed ticket by a very famous driver and managed to keep a top fuel car in the lane at well north of 200 mph, but of course, that is another story !
I will start this Blog entry off with a cut and paste from an entry I recently posted on the forum.
I am not a fan of the non-mopar t5 transmission conversion. A great deal of those transmissions have gear splits that were meant for low horsepower, low torque engines and they just do not match up well to a flathead mopar. The are also in my opinion, a great deal of work to make the conversion. There are many models of the T5 transmission, with several having very little overdrive to them. As some have pointed out, when I posted a chart showing a great deal of the T5 transmissions, in at least one case a member who is a huge t5 supporter, editted his post as his transmission was not what he thought it was. That may should like a shot, it isn't meant to be, but what it is really is an illustration that a lot of guys have ventured into the t5 project without realizing what they are in for or what they even have. I do completely understand why so many having went though the conversion process, claim to be happy. They may indeed be, with all the work behind them and in some cases guys are not about to admit that they wished they have never went that route. At least one of those recently posted on the blog here, who was beyond frustrated with the project effort level and the results.
Now having said that, there are some t5 with better splits and more overdrive than others, but given the work effort, the cost and the end product it still wouldn't be my first choice.
I wont go into the ramble on why I still prefer the Mopar Overdrive solution, and why for me the 1952-56 R10G Borg Warner overdrive gives you in essence a 6 speed transmission, and concentrate on the pursuit of many. That being a easier to find Overdrive transmission that provides you with a decent level over overdrive, with a decent gear split and for many, the desire to have a floor shift in their car.
There is also those with earlier (pre-1939) Mopar's that had a floor shift transmission and would like to keep that original cab look, but want an overdrive and cant find one of the floor shift overdrives from the 30's that came from Chrysler/Desoto.
A 1975 - 1987 Aluminum A833 4 Speed Transmission with overdrive.
Yes, the A833 "bullet proof" transmission is the in essence the same transmission as the "cast iron" version of the 60's that went behind the 426 Hemi. Those transmissions tend to be very pricy and 4th is direct drive 1:1 so since were looking for Overdrive, the older cast iron A833 doesn't fit the bill. Although the 1975- 1987 Aluminum A833 certainly does!
Lets start with for the earlier Plymouth we have to deal with the "X" frame so the A833 becomes a great candidate for this application.
I would use the Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 and went thru until mid 1987.
Here is the gear splits:
1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)
The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles: o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
The "Coles note" version of what you will need to do and I will mix in the details concerning the "X-Frame" which only becomes relevant in the models from the 1930's. You will be using the original bell housing, not the one that came from the vehicle that had your donor A833 4 speed and yes ones like the bell housing in the pickups are large and might leave you the impression your on the wrong track. You will need and Adapter plate and screws to mount the transmission up to you stock bell housing. You do not need to make modifications to your bell housing
* The Adapter plate kits (Plate and screws) are available from AoK. We do not have A833 transmissions for sale You will need to change your clutch to fine spline and you will need to make an adjustment to the connection of the A833 transmission to the drive shaft. You can change the yoke on your drive shaft so it will connect up to the new transmission or in many cases this may be the opportunity to put in a modern rear end which will allow you to use a modern driveshaft with the A833 and the new rear end. Will talk about that more in a second.
** Note: Sept 2015 we sold the last Adapter plate and our Supplier cranks up the price to the point that we are looking for another supplier. Will update this blog entry when we have more details. Nov 2105 - as covered below, we have got a new supplier and have the adapters and bolts (as a kit) for $125 USD plus shipping. That is the price for the next 25 at least and is priced really based on what the cost of the aluminum stock price is.
You do not need to change your pilot bushing as it is the same as original.
On 1937 – 39 Plymouth cars (with the X-Frame), you can cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in place. Some think it is fine to leave it with the piece of X-Frame taken out, although it is easily to get it back in place so that would be my preference. The the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop and then fasten the half of the X-Frame back in.
Depending on which A833 transmission you get, you may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer. It is the round plate that has 4 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,
For the 1937 we recently had a hand in, he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack), however there are lots of great and inexpensive options there.
You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.
For the 1937 Plymouth project I just mentioned, he put in a 1963-64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It also had 3” x11” brakes and positraction and a 3:55 rear end ratio which with the a833 gives you 2.59 results as well gave you the emergency brake on the rear axle since you loose the emergency brake drum when you swap out your original transmission.
Here is a handy chart on mopar rear ends that may come in handy depending on your application
For the 1937 Plymouth which already had a floor shift, the shifter had to be modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly ,to have it come up the original shifter position. Despite the two bends it shifts perfectly.
If you are putting the A833 in an early pickup the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2 and it shifts perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup.
The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits!
For cars from the 1940s and 50's you don't have to deal with the "x-frame" so the project is even simpler. In terms of the shifter position coming through the floor, you will have a slightly better starting point than other modern floor shift transmissions, and keep in mind you can modify the shift to bend it towards the passenger if you like or towards the firewall.
Personally in a 1948 Plymouth business coupe, we made no modification left (towards the passenger side) but bent it forward towards the firewall a bit just because for the driver (6 foot 2 inches) that is just where it felt the best. The point being you have a fair amount of flexibility in where you want the shifter to come up through the floor and then bend it to work best for you. For the 1946-48,Plymouth it seem the US cars may have a slightly different back mount with a cross over member being notched for the standard 3 speed. To then accommodate the lower a833 transmission, I am told you have to notch that cross over frame piece slightly to use the adapter and A833 transmission. For the 1948 Canadian Plymouth we did not have that issue.
* Jan 2016 - We have been able to pull stock transmission out of 1946-48, 1949, and 1950 Plymouths made in USA and every one would require modification of the cross member as the A833 4 speed being deeper than the stock transmission is going to hit the cross member..
Also remember that when you swap out your original transmission and move to any modern transmission, you have to consider what your doing for an emergency brake. As I covered above, the change of the rear end to a more modern rear end may solve that problem for you. There other options,
1 such option would be something like - E-Stopp Electric Emergency Brake with Remote Push Button
Here is the A833 illustration right from Dodge/Chrysler and then a view angles of a rebuilt tranny.
** Dec 22 2015 - Just to be clear, the A833 adapter plate is for Mopar 833 Aluminum 4 speeds for use in Mopar cars, and was not designed for use with the - 1981 -1986 Chevy/GM Truck Overdrive which I believe is a 833/RPO MY6. We were contacted in May by a customer and in the conversation it became apparent he was considering using a GM version of the transmission and he was told there appears to be a great deal of difference between it and the Mopar version of the A833. It appears he has been able to make modifications and get it to work and we will attempt to get a report from him, but up until now we have had zero experience trying to use A833 chevy truck transmissions with this adapter. That doesn't mean that this conversion cant be successful, but it does mean we don't have experience in doing this.
There also appears to be interest in an adapter plate for the lighter truck bell housings, which as of now our adapter plate would be viable only for the 1955 and newer 1/2 tons using the column shift 3 speed and utilize the car style bell housing. The floor shift heavier 3 speed and lighter for speed (top bell housing below) and the heavier 4 speed in the 1 ton and lighter 2wd trucks with heavier 4 speeds that utilize the offset bell housing (bottom bell housing below) will not work with our current adapter plate and an a833 mopar 4 speed. Depending on demand we can make adapter plates for either. Let us know if you are interested.
Feb 5 2016 -
Well mission accomplished. We now have an adapter plate for the both heavy 3 speed floor shift and light 4 speed bell housings and heavier 4 speed bell housings. Bellow is the truck adapter which works for both, then a picture of it with the car and light 3 speed column shift for tucks, and then a picture of the two truck bell housings that the new adapter plate works with. Price is going to be $135 & shipping for the kit. The kit will be the adapter plate and 4 bolts required to mount the adapter plate to the truck bell housing.
Bottom line: In the continental United States car adapter plates are $140 shipped and truck adapter platers are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.
Part 3 - 1st car I purchased! .. Out comes the engine and the rebuild begins!
We left off in my story with Mom knowing and surprisingly wasn’t quite ready to kill me. Of course my Mom is about 5 foot 2 and 120 pounds, and at 16 I was 6 feet and 220 pounds, but then, even I knew if she had it in for us Dad and I would be dead, lol figuratively speaking of course.
In any case, the week after Mom found out about the car and we had the little family show and tell, Dad and I started on the motor. Off came the hood, and off came the intake. Dad shock his head, and soon off came the passenger side head. Not happy with what he saw, off came the other head.
I remember Dad saying, well we have a project here alright, and off he went to get a engine tree as Grandpa called it. It was and adjustable frame that went over the car and that you could put a chain fall from a mounted hook and pull and engine. It was something Grandpa had made and it really was a heavy duty piece of equipment that could be taken apart and moved by 1 person, however assembled had no problem to pull a big motor out of a tractor or bulldozer. Up went the engine tree and before he left the hemi was out of the car and sitting on the barn floor, with its 4 speed transmission coming with it.
The heads went into the back of Mom’s Fargo pickup that we had driven to the farm and home for supper we went. Mom of course wanted to know if it was back running yet, and Dad with a straight face said, nope, we need to freshen it up a bit.
Lol.. yah freshen it up a bit was one way to put it.
After supper Dad and I were in his shop attached to the house, and disassemble of the head took place. What we saw wasn’t pretty. Numerous valves were burnt, there were seats cracked and it was pretty clear, the engine had been driven hard.
The next day Dad took the head to work and when he got home, the report wasn’t good. Both heads had cracks, the one with the blown head gasket and the most burnt valves was warped, cracked and pretty much not repairable.
Next thing to move up from the farm to the shop was the short block. We knew there was antifreeze in the pan, so the question was, how long had it run with antifreeze in the pan and what there the bearings like.. Lol..well pan off and a couple of caps off, and it wasn’t pretty. Bearings were ruined,crank was damaged, rods were marginal, 3 pistons were damaged, and things were not looking well.
Everything got checked for cracks, damage,and in the end Dad would say – well son, at least the block isnt cracked.. So much for this hemi needing a head gasket and away we go. This went from that to a rebuild, to a major rebuild, to the need for a lot of new parts.
The truth is the list of parts was extensive. New crank, rods, pistons, rings, cam, heads, valves and on and on.. So with my part time, after school and summer time job at Rockwood hardware on the go I was literally saving nickel I could for parts. A couple more part time jobs and I was certainly putting in the hours.
I think both Grandfathers, a couple of uncles, and heck even my Mom was feeling sorry for me. When people asked what I wanted for my birthday or Christmas, out came the parts list.. lol
Dad help me find a good crank courtesy of his Chrysler contacts, and I sure lots about modifying a perfectly good crank to make it better. In Grampas shop we bored out the block and Grampa pulled some stings to get me a set of top fuel h-beam rods that actually were likely worth more than I paid for the car. I quickly learned there are balanced rods, and well there are rods my Dad and Grampa were willing to accept as balanced. Out came a rod balancing tool Grampa first built in the 1930s and that had undergone a few modifications and I got to watch the master at work. A so called balanced set of rods, under went about 30 more hours of work Partly it took so long as I was undergoing training Grampa and Dad style and partly because it started to become the pursuit of a perfect set of parts.
At one point in time, Dad went into his parts room in the shop and out he came with a set of heads. These were no normal Hemi Heads and they had already undergone extensive modifications. Dad said to me, “well if were going to do this, then lets really do it”.. and it was really game on.
I remember one Saturday morning, it wasn’t even light and Dad was waking me up to head to his shop. Assembly was about to start. It was more than a little father-son time, as Grampa Kingsbury was already in the shop with everything lined up ready to roll.We started assembly and after lunch Grampa Bolton arrived with the “mystery cam”. I say mystery because he and Dad were back and forth of cam specs, and Grampa had cut and parkerized 3 or 4 cams, had them put in the block checked things and out they came again.
So he had mystery cam #7 as it was known because he had it wrapped in an old hockey practice jersey of mine, and you guessed it, it had a #7 on it.
I figured I was there to make coffee, run for stuff, but oh no.. I most certainly was under heavy supervision, but the expectation was I was to by the chief assembly guy. By Sunday afternoon, the engine was complete and hooked up to a test bed Dad had for testing engines.
I figured ok, lets fire this puppy up…. But oh no.. It seems I was the only one that didn’t know this was going to be a command performance. So we cleaned up,went home, got ready and headed to Grama and Grampa Kingsbury’s for Sunday night dinner. It was darn near a family reunion with aunts and uncles and cousins. After supper was over the two Grama’s standing at the head of the table asked if anyone wanted to go see what ‘Tim, and the cast of automotive tinkerers were up to”. I am sure I blushed a bit and my Grampa Kingsbury burst out laughing as my Grampa Bolton rolled his eyes and my Dad just shook his head. So everyone loaded up, and off to Dad’s shop we went.
I thought it a little odd for about 20 people to have interest in test firing my engine, but what the heck.. So we all arrived in the shop and fired up the monster. With open headers dumping into hoses going outside,2 huge 4 barrel carbs on top, it definitely barked as it was 1st fired. The heads we were using had 2 spark plugs per cylinder so when my cousin said- “no wonder this thing is so loud. A v16 is so cool”…
Of course that lead to my mom commenting that “no wonder it is so expensive” … and so the misinformation continued. Thanks Mom!
Then came the real reason everyone was there. It wasn’t really to hear the engine start up, it was because my aunts and uncles had got together and had the interior redone, had it put into the rolling chassis, and they had brought it up from the farm and rolled it into Dad’s shop after we had left for home. It was a few days before my birthday and well “Happy Birthday!” was the theme as my Uncle got me over as he pretended to look in the car for the 1st time.
So there it was, the engine done, the car done, it was just a case of getting the engine bolted back up to the transmission, and sliding the “big elephant” back into place!
In the next chapter: Its locked down, who knows and who cares how much HP it has, its time to take this puppy to Toronto International Dragway ! Lol.. the NHRA 1/4 mile track, not the now Toronto International Airport !
Well it has been a while since we last checked in with the progress report on the New AoK intake.
As does happen some things just throw a curve ball into a project and the water jacket feature was our
curve ball. We have a perfectionist as our pattern maker and while it didn't increase in price, he most certainly
put in a ton of extra time trying to come up with a solution to the water jacket "perfect solution".
The perfect solution really became comprised of two factors.
1) We asked if it was possible and if so how much of a deal would it be to have 1 set of molds, that allowed
for the creation of the intake without and then with the water jacket.
We were doing that based on a pretty much split down the middle in response from customers on what they would
ideally like to have.
2) Was is there any difference in having the water tube integrated on the outside or the inside.
If it is on the inside it would look better as things are a little more hidden and we don't have any issue
with the it interfering with linkage required for vehicles needing linkage on the outside of the intake such as trucks.
So between #1 and #2 we went from being a couple of weeks ahead when we were ready for a 1st cast early in January, to
being a month or so behind. Lol.. welcome to the world of trying to make as perfect a part as you can.
Now for the good news: The final molding (not just the prototype molding) is now finished and what we hope is the final intake
before going to production with be cast this week.
It will be shipped to us to be checked over, then machined to make sure it is 100% in line with the specs.
Then assuming its two thumbs up we will go into production casting the intake without the water jacket.
No, don't panic, we will then insert the add on mold piece and be able to cast the intake with the water jacket.
So we are making progress and the there are some great things coming from the process but it is taking time.
Expected shipping of intakes to customers... still shooting for April time frames.
This is a picture of our AoK triple for the big block. It has a set of AoK headers made from a stock exhaust manifold.
Customer wanted white !
These two pictures are the AoK triple on Tim Kingsbury (my) 1949 Plymouth Business coupe. It gives you a good idea what the headers
look like mounted on the car. Personally I prefer the look over other headers as it provides more of a period look and provides the same performance results.
We keep being asked about Mopar Overdrives, so I thought I would do a blog on spotting overdrives.
I know from the start this is not the definitive guide, thus I have titled it - "The Rough Field Spotters Guide for Overdrives" and this will start off being slanted towards Plymouths ! This will definitely grow as I need to take some pictures of earlier (pre-1942) overdrives to put up.
If you want to add replies with more information, super, more than welcome. If you want to send me pictures and add them in, again more than welcome. I will be putting a list of contributors on the bottom. I say that because my intention if to keep adding to this. As well I will put up a few pictures that I happen to have close at hand, but will adjust, add and change pictures as time goes on.
I may also put in a tab with links to other sites, article etc on overdrives as I find them !
Chrysler started using Overdrive Transmissions in 1934 and Walter Chrysler described it something to the effect, that the use of true overdrive transmissions were made for high speed cruising and award-winning economy should drivers opt for moderate operation.
"Walter P. Chrysler at White House (cropped)" by Harris & Ewing, photographer
There were several generation of early overdrives used prior to Walter Chrysler's death on 1940, starting with the introduction in 1934 and there use would extend to every part of the Mopar family before the retirement of the L-Head of Flathead Engine Line.
We will concentrate here on the early overdrives, leading up to the "peak" of the Borg Warner Electric Overdrive coming out in the 1952 Plymouth Car line with the R10G1 Borg Warner overdrive attached to a 3 speed manual transmission. The R10G1 was used fro 1952 to 1956, when Plymouth then changed to the longer R10J1 Borg Warner overdrive transmission.
Along the way in the 1952 Canadian Dodge and Fargo heavy trucks a 5 speed transmission was introduced with an option of having 5th gear as overdrive. Teamed up with a 2 speed rear axle, it provided quite a range for hauling heavy payloads, or rolling down the highway empty.
Chapter 2: - The history of the overdrives (short version)
On Monday April 13, 1931 when the United States Patent Office opened, Rex Keller was there to file application # 529,666, making 36 Claims for patent of a “Clutch”. This application would eventually be issued of May 16, 1939 as patent # 2,158,544 to Rex E Keller Los Angeles California.
The application for patent was pitched to Walter P Chrysler, who would assign it to Carl Breer the head of Engineering to see if they could utilize the concept. In Carl Breers, book/autobiography entitled “The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy” there is an excellent explanation of what took place and here is an excerpt of that book.
It would be during this process that the terms “Keller Clutch” and “Overdrive” would come forward. It should be noted that this “Keller Clutch” is not named after K.T Keller (Kaufman Thuma Keller) who was head of Chrysler Manufacturing at the time, and would upon Walter Chrysler retiring in 1935 become the “hand-appointed successor” as Chairman of the Board of Chrysler Corporation, but was Rex E Keller and inventor from Los Angeles California.
Once Engineering had perfected the Overdrive Transmission Carl Breer discussed its manufacturing with K.T Keller, and both asked for a meeting with Walter Chrysler to discuss that matter. Breer and Keller made a presentation on both the “Keller Clutch”/Overdrive Transmission as well as its manufacture Their estimated cost to setup manufacturing was $25,000, to which Walter Chrysler is quoted in Breers book as saying “We can’t afford it; let Borg Warner make it.”
What isn’t included in Breer’s book is how the $25,000 estimate was arrived at, or what the recommendation of Keller and Breer was. It is my belief that Keller, who was already stretched to bring the new Airflow to completion made sure the estimate was high enough that the joint recommendation of Keller and Breer would be approved by Walter Chrysler.
My Grandfather’s opinion was that this was the most expensive error in Chrysler’s history and ironically mirrored that of Henry Ford with the Dodge Brothers. While it brought the Overdrive transmission to the Chrysler and Desoto lines well ahead of any other automotive manufacturer, it also opened up a Patent that was controlled by Chrysler to its competition through the manufacturing deal with Borg Warner. It would soon be referred to as “the Borg Warner Overdrive”.
Well after my Grandfather’s death when Daimler agreed to sell the Chrysler unit to Cerberus Capital Management in May 2007 for US$6 billion, Borg Warner had a market cap value of almost twice the value of Chrysler.
Unfortunately it seems Grandfather was indeed correct, and he often pointed out that it was not the 1st time where a smaller supplier was put into business and eventually dwarfed the larger manufacturer. Of course he was referring to the Dodge Brothers who prior to going on their own to manufacture their own Cars and Trucks, were major suppliers for Henry Ford. In 1903 the Dodge brothers had agreed to supply Henry Ford with 650 chassis (including engines, transmissions, and axles) for $250 each. In this case to avoid a further investment of $25,000 Chrysler put a much small manufacturer into a business, which later on would come back to bite Chrysler. To put it into relative terms Chrysler had purchased Dodge for approximately $170 million in 1928.
On March 14, 1934 Rex Keller would file application # 715,513, with the United States Patent Office making 4 Claims for patent of an ”Automatic Transmission”. This application would eventually be issued of December 17, 1940 as patent # 2,225,174 to Rex E Keller Beverly Hills California. It would be in this application for patent that the first use of the terminology “Overdrive” would be used. Ironically this patent was not issued until after Walter P Chrysler’s death some 4 months earlier.
So who was Borg Warner -
In 1902 Thomas W. Warner formed the Warner Gear Company in Muncie Indiana to manufacture automobile parts, steering, and transmission gears. In 1909 the First manual transmission is manufactured by Warner Gear. The original Borg-Warner Corporation was formed in 1928 by the merger of Warner Gear, which itself was founded by Thomas Warner in 1901; Borg & Beck founded by Charles Borg and Marshall Beck in 1903 and Marvel Schelber Carburetor Co founded in 1905 by George Schebler and the Mechanics Universal Joint Company.
Chapter 3: The patents
- Work in progress. I now have them, just need to figure out how to get them in the blog entry
Chapter 4: The overdrive generations
This is a high level chart on the various Mopar Overdrives
1934 overdrive 1st used by Chrysler (I believe in the Chrysler Custom Imperial Royal and the Airflow)
This was a Warner Transmission and Warner Overdrive
Patent Image - R E Keller Patent: 2,225,174 Filed: March 14 1934
Walter P Chrysler showing of The 1934 chrysler airflow - equipped with overdrive
1935 Chrysler - Tr14 warner transmission with a separate overdrive unit.
It expanded in the models it was used, some standard equipment and some Optional The models this transmission and overdrive came in were:
CHRYSLER AIRFLOW, MODEL Cl OPTL. CHRYSLER IMPERIAL, C2 (1935) CHRYSLER CUST. IMP. CW* ('35), C3 ('35), DE SOTO, MODEL SG (1935)--OPTL.
An early advertisement showing "over drive"
1936- This year is one on to its own it is a 1 piece - Borg Warner T86 1A overdrive transmission
1937 - This is the first year of the Borg Warner R6 transmission
It is at this point that Chrysler really started to pump the overdrive in its marketing brochures. Not only was it featured in the Car Brochure but they produced a separate brochure just on the overdrive and its features.
Here is an example of the car brochure
Here is the rare 1937 Overdrive Brochure
1938 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - still a top loader, floor shift only
- More details to follow here and shortly I will have some pictures of a 1938 Chrysler Transmission to post.
Here is a 1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial Brochure - extracts
Here is he 1938 Chrysler Royal Imperial Brochure - extracts
Here are some pictures of a 1938 overdrive transmission, freshly restored jan 22 2015 by the master -George Asche
1939 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - "Electric overdrive" & Optional two formats
So for 1939 you could have the top load or floor shift and you could have column shift which was done with a cable. 1939 also saw the first use of the solenoid so it would electrically kick it out of overdrive. Prior to that you have to go down to about 2 5-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.
Illustration showing the cable used in the Column shift
Here are some pictures of a 1939 overdrive transmission.
1940 – The Borg Warner R7 overdrive and Now Only column shift - 1 year only
This is also the last year where the gear cluster and 2nd speed gear in the 3 speed transmission gave you a "fast 2nd speed". This was done with a cluster tooth count of - "126.96.36.199" and the 2nd speed gear was a 23 tooth count. After this the cluster was a tooth count of "188.8.131.52"
I have a good reference document describing the "WARNER OVERDRIVE "KICK-DOWN1 CONTROL" dated 1940, which I need to try and get uploaded here at some point.
1941 - The Borg Warner R7 overdrive ends as a new car offering
It seems very few cars in 1941 had the R7 overdrive in them although I do know that there was a Chrysler Service bulletin that described putting this R7 overdrive transmission in later model cars and I know of at least 1 1942 Plymouth which had an overdrive from the factory in it. Keep in mind Canada entered the 2nd World War in 1939, so civilian cars after 1939 were tough to get until the 1946 model year. This maybe one of the very 1st Plymouths to have an overdrive in it, as everything I have described earlier are Chrysler and Desoto vehicles.
1952 - 1956 - The Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive and the full introduction in the Plymouth line
I will add a bunch more to this section over time. As well in the reference section will be pictures of the transmission.
1956 (late) more commonly 1957-1959 the Borg Warner R10J1 overdrive appeared
I say late 1956 because I have known seen a Plymouth built on December 10th 1956 that has the R11 overdrive in it right from the Windsor Ontario Canada plant. I will add a bunch more to this R11 section over time.
As well in the reference section will be pictures of the transmission.
The other overdrives
I know described in the article in the reference section below stated that it is 1954 that dodge trucks came out with overdrives and describes other models. Again keep in mind I think we all find new information that allows us to be more intelligent today than we were yesterday and that doesn't mean that at the time that article was written that was the best information available to its author.
I do know that in 1952 both Dodge/Fargo trucks were offered with overdrives, as I have a 1952 Fargo 4 ton with a 265 ci motor, factory dual intake and exhaust, a 5 speed transmission, with 5th being overdrive
I am also told by a very respected expert/researcher of Chrysler Service bulletins which provided information and part number to retrofit overdrives into cars without original equipped overdrives, which included year prior to 1952.
This section will definitely be a work in progress.
Chapter 5: Repair, Mix and Match, or Retrofit primer
In this chapter I am going to try and go over taking transmissions and overdrives from one year/generation and putting them in earlier or in some case later model cars. I will be looking for help here as I know while we have some great knowledge on the subject there is much more information out there.
As well, we will shortly enter into the discussion of putting a more modern overdrive transmission into your old Plymouth and it will not be a T5 conversion. Mopar !!!!!
Here is a great resource document that covers the Overhauling of the 1935-39 Overdrives, thanks to Bert Platz, who is one of those guys who Is one of the specialists for the 1935-38 overdrives.
The Reference Section:
R1) One of the great articles I would like to refer to is one that I have been given Permission from “the living legend” - Jim Benjaminson to use here.
Of course if you are not a member of the Plymouth Owners Club here is the place to Do that and catch other cool stuff and articles
R2) The Chrysler Master Tech Series - a section of the 1952 films put on you tube.
Simply great stuff covering r10g1 overdrives and a few extras I will toss in.
Here is the 1952 movie to explain the overdrive to the dealers.. no this is cool !
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-5 Automotive Overdrive - Operation
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-6 Automotive Overdrive Controls
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-7 Automotive Overdrive Maintenance
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-8 Universal Joints And Propeller Shafts
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-4 Servicing Tips
R3) A few early pictures
I will attach here a few early pictures, lol and by early I mean early in the development of this blog post. Not early in the overdrives coming from Chrysler. That will come later. Right now, since I have been asked to show a picture of an overdrive I thought I best take this from draft to publish and will just keep updating it.
So consider this a work in progress:
R4) Reference Pictures 1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 19 1/2"
1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) with input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing
1952 - 1956 Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive attached to a 3 speed standard transmission looking from bottom - again with the input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing
* You can adapt the R10G1 overdrive on to the 1953-54 Plymouth Hy-Drive transmission (has a different input shaft)
1957 and newer Borg Warner R10J1 transmission attached to a 3 speed standard transmission Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25"
M6 Gyromatic "semi auto" with r7 overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one)
Dodge Gyromatic - had "fluid drive" without overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one but believe it was a 1949)
* Note: a 1949 Dodge Gyromatic has a external brake band for the hand brake and a 1950 and newer has a brake drum with internal shoes for the hand brake Reference Links: