Folks - I started to write this note on Monday on what was the 80th Birthday of my good friend, George Asche's wife June's 80th birthday. June has been in extremely poor health for the last 14 months and has surpassed all of the medical experts estimates. The last few weeks have been a struggle but when I dropped by to visit with flowers as I have done for now close to 20 years, she smiled, thanked me and tried hard to carry on a conversation. She was a very cool lady. She was both extremely talented musically as she was up to Nascar races and what Mopar projects were going on around the AoK world.
So I started my blog entry to pay tribute to the lady who called me her third son, which always got a both smile from both of us as I would say, I am always proud to be your oldest son, even if I was your last child..
Well, Monday was her 80th birthday and on Monday we started the celebration of her life as God called her home on her birthday. I apologize as I should have put up notification of her passing, but I just wasn't feeling up to it. On Wednesday evening there was a celebration of her life and the outpouring of love and support was incredible to see.
At the end of the evening the count of the people who visited, was some how appropriate, being the magical Mopar number of 426!
Thursday was her funeral service and it was a terrific service appropriate for just how special June was. It was an overflow crowd and was followed by a reception at the local church with enough food to feed a large army.... and I am not kidding.
Here was the notice in the paper.
For those wondering how George is, I would say this. George and June have been married 60 years later this month. The loss of a spouse is a life changing event, but I know George well and he is at peace that his beloved June is today in a better place. June, like George was born again, and all of the family and close friends know that while June's time on earth has ended, her impact will go on forever and she is with God today, and likely either playing a guitar, piano, or watching a Nascar or NHRA race in heaven. George who was at June's side in the end as he has been on a constant basis during the last chapter of her life, I think finally got his 1st full nights rest in over a year this week.
For those wishing to send a note to George, since I was asked today, George's address is 1693 Fertigs Road, Fertigs PA, 16364
In this sport its funny how many times ones path crosses with a kindred spirit, This blog entry is of just such a person, whose daily driver, and I do mean year around daily driver, got another performance improvement. Not its first and not its last.
Proud to have a good friend of the AoK boys document his baby's latest performance update.
Here we go - As Fred started out -
"Hey all, had a suspicious package arrive today at the local Canada Post Office inside the General Store. Much to my thrill, a AoK Asche Dual Intake/exhaust, BBI carbs, and a A833 adpater plate was in the box, T5ers eat your hearts out.. Now the big plan for phase 1, pull stock manifolds, clean up engine paint and make all nice and purdy. The new duals will be installed, with George Asche carbs and linkage, these are the large cfm truck carbs too. Hope to get a lot more punch out this old 238 engine, gonna be kool. The A 833 trans, have 1 in the wings, not sure how well it will be with my current 3.23 gears, but do think it should be just fine. I am not sure if I will be pulling the head, and having it shaved, but that is a possibility. The final plan at some future point is the ultimate 265 hot cam, shaved head, will definitely push this little old Fargo along real nicely...."
As suggested by Captain Fred in his blog entry on his 1940 Plymouth build, he wanted something done on cams.
Well, that can be quite a topic, and while you can find all kinds of article on the "inter-web" on how cams work in an engine, my goal is to put a Flathead Mopar slant on the topic.
Of course as my Grandfather used to say, an engine is nothing more and a large vacuum pump. Your cam turns lifting up intake valves, as pistons are being turned by a crank and that creates a vacuum. The vacuum sucks in whatever is near by into the engine. The cam turns a little further, closing the intake valve, we "light a candle" to whatever is in then in the cylinder and after what we hope is a controlled explosion, the cam turns a little further lifting exhaust valves and those pistons coming up push out whatever is left out of the engine..
In the V8 world a great deal of people used to think that making power, aside from the "no replacement for displacement" concept was putting in a wild cam. As time went by in the racing world, while the cam was important, we know it is the heads that are a much bigger factor to the V8 world. Sure superchargers or turbo chargers, trying to jam more stuff into the cylinder and the type of fuel you use for your controlled explosion also became a big factor, but in the world of cam vs heads it is the heads that lead that world.
In the flathead Mopar world, fuel isn't entering via the heads, and so it is definitely a cam that leads this world over the heads.
Next lets talk about stock lift and duration and even there, Chrysler Corporation made a huge number of cam profiles so the second I toss this out here, its easy for someone to say - "my stock cam is different" and yes I know that.
But in high level terms, a cam has two major factors and a few lesser factors. Lift and most of the p15-d24s were a 375 lift and then duration. Lift is how high the cam lifts the valve from its closed position, and duration is the degrees of the 360 degree circle that it keeps those valves open. In other terms how high we lift the valves and for how long we keep them open, whether intake or exhaust valves.
Again high level - you are limited by how high you can lift the valves in a flathead by the head. Lift the valve too high and it hits the head. On the duration side, there becomes a point where you have kept the valves open too long and it starts to effect the actual vacuum level in your engine. Remember again, a big vacuum pump. as we open and keep open valves we loose the seal on the vacuum. Of course we do that because we want to get and fuel and air mixture into the engine.
The change in duration also does things to the torque curve on your engine, but that is a whole different level of the discussion and I am trying to keep this more on the basic side.
Again in general if we keep the intake valves open longer and lift the intake valves higher, we get the opportunity to get more fuel/air into the engine. More fuel and air, and yes, clearly effected by the compression ratio, the more "bang" when we ignite the mixture with the spark plug firing.
Now, in the cause and effect department, generally as we raise up the valves higher (aka the lift) and hold those valves open longer (increased duration) we tend to change the rpm idle and things become what most of us call "lumpy". In the good old mopar v8 days of the 1970s I am sure lots remember pulling up to the lights with a guy running a "cammed up" motor and it was idling rough, shaking, coughing an weezing and yes that was also how the timing was set, but it was the duration of the cam that was causing that. When the light turned green and they hammered it, assuming the timing was set correctly, the goal was for that high lift cam to allow for a lot more fuel to get into the engine dramatically raising the RPM and turning the lumpy idling engine into a smooth running race engine.
Yes I am isolating and slanting this entire discussion towards cams, when timing can also be a huge factor. No better example being when Big Daddy Don Garlitz was forced to use a 426 hemi after they actually ran out of 392 hemis. He couldn't get the 426 to run as well, and out of frustration he advanced the timing way way beyond what anyone would have thought would work. In fact Don often tells the story that he intended to blow the "blanking" thing up. But as the engine rev'd up that advanced timing suddenly brought out the inner Monster of the 426 Hemi and all of a sudden the 392 Hemi was obsolete in Don's mind!
Back to our cams and remembering that the generation of car cams we are talking about were 375 lift. There are two school of thoughts on creating high performance cams. 1st is to raise the lift gradually and some pretty famous high performance cams raise the lift to 380 an and then increase the duration to 242 degrees. The 2nd is to raise the lift up as extreme as we can and also increase the duration. in the 1950s a pretty famous performance cam used a 400 lift. and 250 degrees of duration.
The other factor without diving into the details to much, is what I call the split. A great deal of cams have the intakes open and the exhaust close at exact same time, but some use a split. So for example an Esky 3/4 miles cam the intake opens intake valves at 20 degrees and closes them at 50 degrees and the exhaust opens at 57 degrees and closes at 13 degrees.
The Schroller full race cam - again a stock car racing - Higher lift and increased duration the Intake - has the intake valves open at 18 degrees and closes at 54 degree. The exhaust opens at 54 degrees and closes at 18 degrees.
If you are using a turbo or a blower, you often want a period of time (number of degrees) in which the intake is close and the exhaust hasn't yet opened, or visaversa.
The age old question is of course - so how much lift can I have before the engine sounds like it is misfiring. Almost always visions of those 1970 v8 engines coughing and wheezing are the reason for thing that. In reality the flathead just doesn't really act like a great deal of those badly timed, over cammed engines.. lol The reality is in the flathead world it is more a case of the rpm rises at idle than it is about it sounding like the 1970;s v8.
Of course most want a cam that sounds like it is rock stock, idles like the engine isn't running, but then they want a Top Fuel Monster to come alive when they hit the throttle. That becomes a delicate balance and is always a compromise.
So lets talk extreme. Maybe there is a wilder cam out there, but if there is we have never seen it. Ill keep the origins of this cam a little bit of a mystery, but the cam we use in the Velociraptor is the most extreme cam we know of. I chuckle these days as this phrase that seems to be in vogue again, but decades ago my Grandfather used to refer to a car that had this cam as "The Hot Mess Express".
Today we call if the AoK Velociraptor Grind . It is tough to get it to idle below 22-2300 rpm and we have with a ton of work have actually gotten our dragster to idle around 2000 rpm. It will wind up to North of 7200 rpm. You can run an engine on alcohol and will need 3 carbs and need to shift to 6 exhaust pipes for at least 42", to get it to run properly. Its lift is are you ready, 446 and its duration is 280 degrees. At this point we definitely have issues with vacuum and it would be extremely rough at idle, thus increasing the RPM just to get it to idle. For those that figure that isn't possible, by reply is gather up and bring all the cash you can find, because I am happy to say - "How much would you like to bet!".
Now from the extreme, to lets say a mid-50s truck cam which topped out around 3600 rpm, becomes the topic where many recipe's for performance have been made. Some by Chrysler Corporation for everything from cars, to boats, to combines and even Massey Harris 101 Super tractors powered by Chrysler Flatheads. The later were built for high torque and low rpm, which is great for plowing a field, but achieving a high way speed, not so much!
Today I think we have a catalogue of around 25 cam profiles. Of those we have cam patterns that we use , made for about 6 or 7 cams and of those, the number drops down to 3 or 4 for most engine builds. I think right now among the Kingsbury motorized items we have 14 different cams in use. In the Asche fleet of motorized items I am going to say they have 7 different cam profiles. The major difference, lol, yes I have more junk... I have a marine version, several truck versions, a combine, a water pump, a welder, a compressor which actually uses 4 cylinders to run the engine and 2 cylinders to make air, and an engine that used to be in a certain motorcycle.. lol.. Oh and I have an actual cam from a tank engine, but it isn't in an engine. I could make a pattern if someone ever needed one !
For Fred's engine, we used what many call an Esky 3/4 race cam. The 3/4 stands for stock car racing on a 3/4 mile long track.
This is what I today call, a fairly mild cam and we likely sell the most of these. I suspect part of that reason is as I talked about earlier, that people think back to those lumpy, poorly idling v8 engines with wild cams.. The .380 lift cam is going to give Fred 4500 rpm quickly. Its been around a long time and has a quicker rev over stock and was used historically for stock car racing. As you can likely figure out by reading this thread so far, we likely sell the most of these because most guys think they want power..... but..... they want to start it and not hear the engine running or running like a sewing machine. Tons of guys call this cam a race cam.. For me, its far from that. The tech side = 242 degrees of duration and .380 lift
Finally I will end the cam conversation for now, with the cam I am using in my 1949 Plymouth. It is what I call a little lumpy but still very much streetable and no, it is nothing like a 1970s over cammed v8 with bad or good timing..
lol but it is definitely aggressive, with a .435 lift and 258 degrees of duration. This cam was developed from tweeking a full race cam through the 1950s and 1960s and was what Harry Hein #90 (NASCAR hall of fame) used at the end of his career. Harry who is still alive would be the uncle of one George Asche Jr. The intake valves open at 20 degrees and close at 58 degrees, while the exhaust opens at 58 degrees and close at 20 degrees.
I hope that helps a little Fred, without confusing things too much!
Now what is in that Engine of yours, I can not confirm or deny what was originally put in the engine is what is in it now.. Who knows what happens in the middle of the night in George's shop... Only the shadow, or in this case the 1929 Desoto knows for sure.. lol
Well The Monster Lives... again..
As I hinted in past blog entries I knew and know where the legendary Plymouth Motorcycle is. I was in touch with its owner Louie Fisher a few years ago after he had acquired the motorcycle along with a buddy from the Dean Hensley estate back in 1992.
They had actually taken it to a couple of antique motorcycle meets in the early 90s and eventually took the big plunge to restore it. Recently they have taken the project from a basket case with no viable drivetrain, to the point where I can say - "The Monster Lives Again!"
I was excited to see the Legendary Plymouth Reporter - Jim Benjaminson with an updated article on AllPar and with it some pretty current pictures.
Here is the link to the article: Enjoy!
If you hadn't read my earlier blog entries on the Worlds Fastest Flathead Motorcycle, here is the link to the 1st parts of the series:
We are excited to have Fred from Germany give us a peak into his project, the one and only "Das Boot"!
This will be a step by step documentary about swapping the stock 23" drivetrain of a 1940 USA model to a modified 25" block with overdrive trans and 3.54:1 rear end. There will be lots of pictures and hopefully a nice discussion. Please feel free to chime in.
As tossed out there by the Fast Fargo Flash from western Canada, here is hoping Captain Fred will update us on his upgrade on his Mopar designed to go after those Ford and Chevy boys in Germany!
And when those Model T speedsters and Chevy Babbet Bearing drivers challenge you... Who you going to call ?
Ghost busters.. . nah.. not this time..
AoK to the rescue..
We hear from people regularly who want another opinion on something, or feel the general forum doesn't fit their needs because they want to ask - where can I buy ???? Or is "$x" to much for this or that.
This is not a replacement for the buy and sell section of the forum, and for what it costs it is hugely under utilized. But if you maybe need a picture of a part you want to use to put up on that section asking to buy one, maybe we or a member can help you with it.
Post away and we will see if we can get you some help.
We maybe delete and restart this thread if it goes stale, but will try and provide folks a fair amount of rope.
Hi guys -
As covered on the earlier blog entry, we have an adapter kit that allows you to bolt up a modern A833 floor shift overdrive on to your
stock bell housing. Please read this blog as it covers a lot more details.
We recently got a new supplier, and have kept the aircraft grade aluminum. The have drilled and bevelled holes for the flush mount
and come with the appropriate bevelled bolts, and have threaded holes were required. The truth is we could have done these at a fraction of the
price if we had done them in steel, but from weight to corrosion, we decided just to do these like the originals we made a number of years ago.
As George Asche says, if we cant make Grade A stuff, I don't want our name (AoK) associated with it! Lol..
They are in stock right now and they are $140 USD each (adapter plate and bolts) shipped anywhere in the Continental United States.
A 2nd, 3rd or 4th adapter plate would be $125 USD each and all go in the same box, so you save the shipping on the additional plates by a combined shipment.
We got them in this week and have already started shipping adapter plate to those who were on a waiting list. Thanks to those who have been patiently waiting.
** We have recently been asked if the adapter plate will work on trucks. The 1st response being what truck and what transmission is in it now. We know of conversions that have been made, but they were all in late 50s pickups that had light 3 speeds with car style bell housings.
*** Nov 21 - In addition to the car bell housing there are several bell housing in trucks. We will take 4wd and heavier trucks with 5 speeds out of the mix here. We believe that believes us with 3 bell housing patterns from the late 30s to the late 50s. The one with the car style bell housing , 3 speed column shift our current adapter plate should work.
For the heavier 3 speed or light 4 speed both floor shift, the bell housing is the one at the top of the attached picture, which has 2 holes equally spaced on the right and left of the bell housing.
For this one we are going to develop adapter plates for.
The other bell housing pattern is the ones at the bottom of the attached picture. It has the 2 bolt holes on the right closer together
than on the left side. This is for the heavier 4 speeds in heavier trucks. While it looks like you can use our existing adapter plate, by drilling 4 holes, tap them and use our adapter plate, we have not actually tried it. At this point unless there turned out to be a demand for them, we don't intend to make new adapter plates for this bell housing / the heavier trucks at this point.
The reason being, we really need to make a minimum of 10 pieces, and to make the price reasonable 25, so unless there
is a demand we don't anticipate it doesn't make much sense to make them for the heavier trucks.
* Update: The adapter plate is completed for the trucks now.
Pricing is for the car version, in the continental United States the adapter kit (plate and bolts) are $140 shipped and truck adapter kits are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping. If you want 2-4 plates they can be shipped in the same box so you save the shipping on those additional plates.
As usual happy to accept emails or give you a call to discuss.. Let us know if you are interested in either truck version.
I was asked if I could start a Nostalgic Chrysler Flathead Racing thread.
Of course, Plymouth, Dodge, Desoto, Fargo and Chryslers are all clearly included as are things like a friend of the families who have a Flathead Chrysler in a Model T Ford.. If it has a Mopar Flathead in it, well it likely belongs here.
Of course from Stock Car to Drag Racing, Walter Chrysler's engineers have had their fingers in the racing pie pretty much since the birth of the Chrysler Corporation.
Along the way the "up and coming" Flathead Chrysler earned its reputation for taking on and blowing away the competition with V8's and more.
Along the way, I hope this becomes a spot those who once had closely guarded secrets on how they got a "little more" out of their Flathead Mopar might finally tell all..
I know from the AoK racing family the 50s were the start and the golden age for George Asche and Eddy Kingsbury. George who in the 50's would campaign his 1929 Desoto, powered with a highly modified 265 Chrysler in the famed "Flying Mile" on Daytona beach where he would go undefeated. George raced V8's and even a v12, in a competition that say a big Chrysler Hemi. In the end George whose top speed was 142 mph.. Yes 142 mph would become the gold standard at the Flying Mile that season. While there is no longer Drag Racing on the beach, George still owns the 1929 Desoto, and it still has no problem meeting all the speed limits in North America.
On the north of the 49th Parallel flathead racing say the building engines driven by some legendary stock car racers, among those the Legendary Jimmie Howard who was one of the 1st Canadians whose full time job was racing stock cars. That also saw the very 1st multi-carb car in stock car racing history, when Wellington Motors in Guelph Ontario received their 1st "nudge nudge wink wink" dual carb, dual exhaust manifold set that went onto a stock car in the spring of 1952. Armed with the Chrysler Engineering parts Manual supplied by my Grandfather, my Dad waited for inspect to defend the usage of the dual car and dual exhaust combination as it technically met the rules of the day.
So as promised.. here is the start of the blog entry..
If you wish, post away.. if you want to email me stuff that you want me to post on your behalf or as part of the blog, feel free to send them to me at - email@example.com
Howdy Folks -
Well while we are awaiting the first lot of intakes to be cast George has been busy working on various linkage combinations.
Here is the 1st look close up of the finished prototype AoK dual carb intake for 23 1/2" USA flathead mopars. This one has - prototype linkage being developed for trucks or 1933-1938 Cars
Notice the left carb linkage bar has been cut short, and is not hooked to the left carb. That is strictly for prototype purposes It shows how
the serial number and linkage block provides the spot for stock linkage components to be mounted and then integrated with the new AoK linkages.
You will notice for this version we are using the outside "wings" to linkeage mounts on the outside. For newer cars where we want the linkage
rail mounted on the inside the inside "wings" will be used and the outside block will just be the serial number plate.
Of course the final linkage for older cars and trucks, will have a longer linkage bar and the same connection to the carb as you will
see on the right carb. Of course on the carbs you will see a mounting spot for cars and for trucks. They actually connect in two different spots.
I can tell you George has the linkage working perfectly. You would just use your stock brackets for trucks and older car applications and the AoK linkage will just integrate with it to give you the desired upgrade from the single to dual carbs. Oh yes, and hot debate on the name.. Our original intent
was to have the writing read from the passenger side although you may notice it was reversed to be read from the other side.
Oh and the cat is out of the bag, as the prototype wasn't supposed to have the name on it yet.. lol.. so lets say George was a little surprised
as he didn't authorize his name on it.. That one I own although he smirked and lets just say he appreciates the tribute!
so the "AoK George Asche Jr Ltd Ed" intake development is pretty much complete.
It's taken a long while but we got her put together this spring. Her name is Bettie. She ran so well that we chose to take her to the Hot Rod Dirt Drags in Monte Vista, Colorado. Won 1-3 against a big black merc. Blew up a second flex plate and found out the steering column needs a new bearing. Even with that she drove there and back home without a complaint! Woot!
Well folks its back from the machine shop and for the last prototype before production it is awesome!
Here are a couple of pictures.. The intake is designed to be able to accommodate a linkage bar on the inside or outside of
the intake, as well as a casted section for truck usage, which will double as a spot for a serial number. We will try and early this
week get an eta on getting the 1st batch, as well as George will make up a set of linkage and we will try and get a shipping
price for anywhere in the USA. Shipping to other locations we will have to get the shipping estimate on a case by case basis.
But the intake is $425, that is machined and ready to bolt on & $150 - $200 if you want our stainless linkage + shipping. So linkage will
require you to reuse part of your linkage setup. Primarily trucks and pre WW2 vehicles.
Its been a long time coming folks, but it is ever so close !
Thanks for everyone's interest and patience!
In this chapter: Its locked down, who knows and who cares how much HP it has, its time to take this puppy to Toronto International Dragway ! Lol.. the NHRA 1/4 mile track, not the now Toronto International Airport !
What had started off as a young guys spotting a dream car in a junk yard, had really become the ultimate family project in my family . Really made possible by my Dad, and both Grandfathers playing significant roles, as did a great deal of the family. I fully realize without the support of my Mom and Grandmothers in the background, the project would have long ago ground to a halt!
By its initial completion I think all of my relatives were aware of the project and many had contributed. I likely also used up all my birthday and Christmas presents for a decade along the way.
Heck even my 1st cousin got involved. She and her friend came over washed and waxed the car without my knowing. They had just left a note with a smiley face on it and a note "Finally clean and ready to roll! Don't forget to take your favourite cousin for a ride.. hint hint!"
My Dad had spent what I thought was a lot of time "tuning the elephant" as he would say. I am to this day still suspicious he was just delaying the launch date until he had a day off.
One Saturday morning which was really only a couple of weeks after the interior had been put in, Dad said to me - "want to go for breakfast with grand-dad. I said sure. I walk out got in his pickup and he yells as he is coming out of the house, to move the truck out to the road. I remember like it was yesterday thinking what does he want to do that for. I moved it out and came back to the house as he had went back in the house. We had a garage that was integrated into the house and had bedrooms over top of it. Usually Mom's car was in one side and there was "stuff in the other bay" What I didn't realize is Dad had brought up the Challenger and parked it in the garage. It seems everyone else in the village did.
Dad heard me come back in the house and yelled from the garage, - "I am down here, lets take this one"..
I remember thinking, take what one, Mom's car? Why would be want to take that. I walked down and there with the garage door rolled up was Dad sitting in the passenger seat of the Challenger..
Wow.. talk about a kid at Christmas.. I walked over opened the drivers door and said - "when did you sneak this in here" and who cleaned it?" He smiled, handed me the note my cousin left and in I got.
I had heard it run what seemed like a hundred times, and even sat in it and fired it up many times, but today it seemed to be a little different.
As the starter engaged and the elephant came alive, it was like she was finally ready to get out of the cage. I remember it seemed like it barely turned over when it flashed up and as I feathered the gas peddle and let it warm up you could hear the power. I pulled off the emergency brake and off we went. Pretty much with my foot on the clutch, the other on and off the brake all the way out the drive, down an incline and down to the stop sign.
I am not sure who had the biggest smile on their face, Dad or myself, but I do know it took a lot of restraint not to lite it up right there. But I turned right, let the clutch out and barely above an idle, drove it the couple of blocks to the main street. I looked both ways, and as I turned left onto the main street, I heard Dad say "flash it up a bit" which was coincidental as it was straight and pointed down main street I put my foot into it. Oh my god did it go. The front tires came up, the back wheels broke loose and the monster under the hood came alive.
Its about 730 on a Saturday morning, and I am launching the Challenger on the main street of Rockwood. Its a sleepy little village with 995 people at the time, and everyone knows everyone, believe me. The speed limit is at the time 30 mph and well I may have been slightly above that as I shifted into 2nd opened it up for about 10 seconds, and then had to shut it down for the up and coming stop sign!
I looked over at Dad, he was looking at me, both smiling, and he just pointed his finger forward. I took it pretty easy as he rolled out of town and I was wondering if I was fouling the 16 spark plugs(2 per cylinder) as I was moving barely over an idle going out of town.
As we hit the edge of the town, and the ironic sign "Rockwood Settles here", which is ironic as the cemetery is right beside the sign, I down shifted from 3 to 2nd, and hammered it. The front tires came off the ground, the back tires were lite up and the smoke was rolling out the wheel wells and we were off. The front end came down straight and I never took my foot off the throttle, until the revs hit the red line and I speed shifted it into 3rd and again the tires broke loose momentarily. It was pedal to the floor and we may not have had wings but we were flying. Into 4th and I back off as the speedometer was well north of the speed limit.
Dad looks over and says to me - "ok its officially broke in, so you can stop babying it! Butttttttt if your going to drive it like you stole it, we best take it to the strip!"
And so the seed was planted.
We went down and picked up Grandpa Kingsbury who had really long ago finished breakfast. He literally would be up before the crack of dawn, and would have a half a days work done and breakfast made and eaten by 730am. We got down to the farm and he was sitting out on the front porch. He could hear us coming for likely 2 miles but sat there and seemed to enjoy us rolling up the lane. I said, "do you want to drive Grampa" and he chuckled and said, "nah there maybe too many police out." Dad had gotten into the back seat behind me and was wedged in with his feet over to the passenger side because Grandpa was well over 6 foot 6 and with his long legs had the seat all the way back and it well tilted into the back. The Challenger definitely was only a slight step up to a Plymouth business coupe when it came to 3 generations of Kingsbury's in the car. At 6 feet and 225 at the time, I was definitely the smallest member of the family in the car as we headed off to Guelph for breakfast.
I don't remember a lot of the trip in, but I do remember as we pulled into the restaurant's parking lot, my Grandfather Bolton had his car parked right at the front door. During breakfast as more and more of Dad's buddies or employees or Grandfather Bolton's friends arrived it was clear this was well planned. There were no cell phones or instant messaging in those days. Heck, both Grandfathers were on a party line telephone service still in the 1970s.
What started off as Breakfast turned into a 1 car,car show with us sitting at the front window and Dad or one of the Grandfathers out doing a show and tell with the car hood up. After breakfast Grandfather Bolton says something to the effect of "lets talk her out to the strip" and he lead us out to the edge of Guelph where a good friend of his owned the private air strip. I remember thinking there is not a chance they are going to let me take my car out on the strip, but hey I was just driving. We drove in the airport and up close to the middle of the track was and still is a little restaurant. In we went for coffee and as we were being given a table by the window, Grandfather was walking right past the employee only sign, through the kitchen and into the office that was in the back where the owner of the airport spent his Saturday mornings.
Out he came with Grandfather and both sat down and we had coffee. A few minutes went by and he looked over at my Dad and said - "well Eddie, so your boy has a new race car I hear". I cant remember exactly what Dad responded with, but the conversation soon turned to maybe having a little match race down the strip against his Sons Corvette.
His son had a 1967 corvette with a 427 in it. the engine was built by the local speed shop and had a big blower coming through the hood a couple of holley carbs and some crazy velocity stacks on top of that. It looked like something out of a cartoon.
They had a few planes scheduled to take off or land in the next 40 minutes but after that there seemed to be a window.
I just sat there at listened. Heck the car wasn't on the road for 1/2 a day yet and were talking about drag racing it. Dad looked over at me at one point and said, well what do you think. You want to take it out for a tuneup and see what we have. I do remember saying something like - "well if you think we should be really racing it, and if you think I can handle it, I guess".
I do remember him saying back to me that given how I handled it so far, and given the airstrip is real wide, there should be lots of room and he wasn't remotely worried about the engine.
So an hour later we roll out onto the air strip for an old school start and a car parked down the strip at the 1/4 mile marker. To be honest I had seen his son drive the Corvette through Guelph many times, and even had him come up to the lights beside me when I was on my motorcycle. The Vette ran like a complete ****-house with some wild cam and questionable ignition system that seemed more like it was missing more times than it was firing at low idle.
It really wasn't much of a race, as despite the Vette leaving the line early, I was going by him in 1st gear as it was sounding more like a hit and miss motor than some high performance drag racing car, and when I crossed over the 1/4 mile marker he was 30or 40 car lengths behind me. It really wasn't close.
He wanted a rematch and his Dad who owned the strip said, ok but this time if your tires start moving before my flashlight goes on your disqualified and paying for Tims fuel for the next month. This time he most certainly didn't leave early but about the time I hit 3rd I looked in my rear view mirror and couldn't tell if he had left the line yet or not he was that far behind. I crossed over the finish line and I could see him coming behind me, but he was a long long way back. We all wound up back in the airpark restaurant and not only did the owner shake my hand, but he also said to me if I ever needed any high test aviation fuel that all I had to do was drop by to see him and then directed me to take the car over and fill it up on him, before we left !
To say I had fun with the car was an understatement. There were more than the odd guy wanting to run me across the lights, but the reality was there was nothing even close to touching it. It could pass anything but the gas station, and I pretty much always had the trunk 5 gallon gas cans as it was pretty fussy about what fuel it ran on, and 105 octane fuel wasn't just on every corner.
The car was definitely not a daily driver and the reason was strictly because even with a great part time job, that seemed me really working 40 hours a week while I was going to school, I just couldn't afford the fuel to drive it all the time.
It wasn't long before Dad and I wound up with the car at Toronto International Dragway. The strip has officially closed as an NHRA track but there was still Friday and Saturday night racing taking place and Dad knew the manager Ted Bosma. There was pretty much everything short of top fuel and jet cars at the track and there were no sunday racing.
We would drive the car to the track, change the back tires to slicks, and away we went. The licence for the dragstrip to operate seemed to have major restrictions. So some how Dad got us in to do a bit of testing early so for several Fridays we got there at 4pm and were able to get a few passes. Then came my chance, we were in a Modified Stock class and honestly I am not sure what the restrictions were. I know there were no blowers, and they were always checking the block casting #, but it didn't seem to be an issue with obviously nonstock heads and 2 distributors. Nor did they seem to be testing fuel, or at least not that I remembered.
I have a ton of Friday night and Saturday afternoon drag racing stories, tons of pictures, time tickets and pictures of some pretty famous drivers who Dad worked for or with at some point that happened to drop by the track to see "the kid". On thanksgiving weekend we had a record 95 degree day with humidity that was approaching 100%. Dad had swapped out in carbs, and components to run Alcohol and in a cross over class race with the Pro Stock winner, the Challenger is 9.95 seconds 135.07 MPH in the 1/4 mile to break the 10 second barrier.
Remember this is well before electronic boxes, and this is a 4 speed car, so back in the day, breaking the 10 second barrier was quite a feat. It also got the attention of the tech crew chief.
Shortly after Toronto International would shut down as subdivisions crept ever closer and the one time country side drag strip that was one of the 1st to see Jet cars rocket down the track, quickly become under major attack by local politicians and just about as quick faded into the history books. Despite being encouraged by a number of well known drivers and racing teams, probably for the best I didn't pursue the lure of a career in drag racing. Lol... that doesn't mean that I don't have a signed ticket by a very famous driver and managed to keep a top fuel car in the lane at well north of 200 mph, but of course, that is another story !
If an engine has run for many an rpm, it will change the insides, most notably the top of the cylinders, for a ring of 'carbon' will build up. This ring reduces the length of the piston's travel. To compensate for that loss several things must happen, the rods must torque a bit, or the bearings must give a bit, or the crankshaft or the piston or some of all of these must compensate for a shorter available stroke.
Eventually, especially when the engine must pull a heavy load, or climb a long hill, or is suddenly called upon to run at significantly higher rpms, or is run hot or on less oil something will give.
Thus the reason to pull the head on an unfamiliar engine and check if there is a ring and remove whatever is there for with that removed, the engine now is able to run it's rpms with full freedom. By assuring that the piston has full range of motion the engine's life is extended.
In like manner the valves, cleaned and seated provides the air flow required thus a cooler temperature and thus less fatigue. Now these improvements do not a new engine make, but they may provide the amount of extended time one needs until a complete build is required or desired.
I find the basics of the mechanical arena as interesting as the infinite details, important as they may be and by knowing and improving the basics I can enjoy this hobby without spending lots of money.
Now if I can refrain from burning down the shop, I may be able to play a bit longer.
I will start this Blog entry off with a cut and paste from an entry I recently posted on the forum.
I am not a fan of the non-mopar t5 transmission conversion. A great deal of those transmissions have gear splits that were meant for low horsepower, low torque engines and they just do not match up well to a flathead mopar. The are also in my opinion, a great deal of work to make the conversion. There are many models of the T5 transmission, with several having very little overdrive to them. As some have pointed out, when I posted a chart showing a great deal of the T5 transmissions, in at least one case a member who is a huge t5 supporter, editted his post as his transmission was not what he thought it was. That may should like a shot, it isn't meant to be, but what it is really is an illustration that a lot of guys have ventured into the t5 project without realizing what they are in for or what they even have. I do completely understand why so many having went though the conversion process, claim to be happy. They may indeed be, with all the work behind them and in some cases guys are not about to admit that they wished they have never went that route. At least one of those recently posted on the blog here, who was beyond frustrated with the project effort level and the results.
Now having said that, there are some t5 with better splits and more overdrive than others, but given the work effort, the cost and the end product it still wouldn't be my first choice.
I wont go into the ramble on why I still prefer the Mopar Overdrive solution, and why for me the 1952-56 R10G Borg Warner overdrive gives you in essence a 6 speed transmission, and concentrate on the pursuit of many. That being a easier to find Overdrive transmission that provides you with a decent level over overdrive, with a decent gear split and for many, the desire to have a floor shift in their car.
There is also those with earlier (pre-1939) Mopar's that had a floor shift transmission and would like to keep that original cab look, but want an overdrive and cant find one of the floor shift overdrives from the 30's that came from Chrysler/Desoto.
A 1975 - 1987 Aluminum A833 4 Speed Transmission with overdrive.
Yes, the A833 "bullet proof" transmission is the in essence the same transmission as the "cast iron" version of the 60's that went behind the 426 Hemi. Those transmissions tend to be very pricy and 4th is direct drive 1:1 so since were looking for Overdrive, the older cast iron A833 doesn't fit the bill. Although the 1975- 1987 Aluminum A833 certainly does!
Lets start with for the earlier Plymouth we have to deal with the "X" frame so the A833 becomes a great candidate for this application.
I would use the Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which started part way into 1975 and went thru until mid 1987.
Here is the gear splits:
1st: 3.09:1, 2nd: 1.67:1 3rd: 1:1 4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)
The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles: o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear) o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
The "Coles note" version of what you will need to do and I will mix in the details concerning the "X-Frame" which only becomes relevant in the models from the 1930's. You will be using the original bell housing, not the one that came from the vehicle that had your donor A833 4 speed and yes ones like the bell housing in the pickups are large and might leave you the impression your on the wrong track. You will need and Adapter plate and screws to mount the transmission up to you stock bell housing. You do not need to make modifications to your bell housing
* The Adapter plate kits (Plate and screws) are available from AoK. We do not have A833 transmissions for sale You will need to change your clutch to fine spline and you will need to make an adjustment to the connection of the A833 transmission to the drive shaft. You can change the yoke on your drive shaft so it will connect up to the new transmission or in many cases this may be the opportunity to put in a modern rear end which will allow you to use a modern driveshaft with the A833 and the new rear end. Will talk about that more in a second.
** Note: Sept 2015 we sold the last Adapter plate and our Supplier cranks up the price to the point that we are looking for another supplier. Will update this blog entry when we have more details. Nov 2105 - as covered below, we have got a new supplier and have the adapters and bolts (as a kit) for $125 USD plus shipping. That is the price for the next 25 at least and is priced really based on what the cost of the aluminum stock price is.
You do not need to change your pilot bushing as it is the same as original.
On 1937 – 39 Plymouth cars (with the X-Frame), you can cut bottom of x frame loop off - (half off) to get the transmission in place. Some think it is fine to leave it with the piece of X-Frame taken out, although it is easily to get it back in place so that would be my preference. The the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop and then fasten the half of the X-Frame back in.
Depending on which A833 transmission you get, you may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer. It is the round plate that has 4 bolts holding it on to the tranny.. A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,
For the 1937 we recently had a hand in, he used a 1966 dodge cornet rt clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate that he bought from napa (called a clutch pack), however there are lots of great and inexpensive options there.
You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.
For the 1937 Plymouth project I just mentioned, he put in a 1963-64 Chrysler New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It also had 3” x11” brakes and positraction and a 3:55 rear end ratio which with the a833 gives you 2.59 results as well gave you the emergency brake on the rear axle since you loose the emergency brake drum when you swap out your original transmission.
Here is a handy chart on mopar rear ends that may come in handy depending on your application
For the 1937 Plymouth which already had a floor shift, the shifter had to be modified slightly so it came up in the original position. Basically the shifter was modified to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly ,to have it come up the original shifter position. Despite the two bends it shifts perfectly.
If you are putting the A833 in an early pickup the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2 and it shifts perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end. I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed. I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup.
The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits!
For cars from the 1940s and 50's you don't have to deal with the "x-frame" so the project is even simpler. In terms of the shifter position coming through the floor, you will have a slightly better starting point than other modern floor shift transmissions, and keep in mind you can modify the shift to bend it towards the passenger if you like or towards the firewall.
Personally in a 1948 Plymouth business coupe, we made no modification left (towards the passenger side) but bent it forward towards the firewall a bit just because for the driver (6 foot 2 inches) that is just where it felt the best. The point being you have a fair amount of flexibility in where you want the shifter to come up through the floor and then bend it to work best for you. For the 1946-48,Plymouth it seem the US cars may have a slightly different back mount with a cross over member being notched for the standard 3 speed. To then accommodate the lower a833 transmission, I am told you have to notch that cross over frame piece slightly to use the adapter and A833 transmission. For the 1948 Canadian Plymouth we did not have that issue.
* Jan 2016 - We have been able to pull stock transmission out of 1946-48, 1949, and 1950 Plymouths made in USA and every one would require modification of the cross member as the A833 4 speed being deeper than the stock transmission is going to hit the cross member..
Also remember that when you swap out your original transmission and move to any modern transmission, you have to consider what your doing for an emergency brake. As I covered above, the change of the rear end to a more modern rear end may solve that problem for you. There other options,
1 such option would be something like - E-Stopp Electric Emergency Brake with Remote Push Button
Here is the A833 illustration right from Dodge/Chrysler and then a view angles of a rebuilt tranny.
** Dec 22 2015 - Just to be clear, the A833 adapter plate is for Mopar 833 Aluminum 4 speeds for use in Mopar cars, and was not designed for use with the - 1981 -1986 Chevy/GM Truck Overdrive which I believe is a 833/RPO MY6. We were contacted in May by a customer and in the conversation it became apparent he was considering using a GM version of the transmission and he was told there appears to be a great deal of difference between it and the Mopar version of the A833. It appears he has been able to make modifications and get it to work and we will attempt to get a report from him, but up until now we have had zero experience trying to use A833 chevy truck transmissions with this adapter. That doesn't mean that this conversion cant be successful, but it does mean we don't have experience in doing this.
There also appears to be interest in an adapter plate for the lighter truck bell housings, which as of now our adapter plate would be viable only for the 1955 and newer 1/2 tons using the column shift 3 speed and utilize the car style bell housing. The floor shift heavier 3 speed and lighter for speed (top bell housing below) and the heavier 4 speed in the 1 ton and lighter 2wd trucks with heavier 4 speeds that utilize the offset bell housing (bottom bell housing below) will not work with our current adapter plate and an a833 mopar 4 speed. Depending on demand we can make adapter plates for either. Let us know if you are interested.
Feb 5 2016 -
Well mission accomplished. We now have an adapter plate for the both heavy 3 speed floor shift and light 4 speed bell housings and heavier 4 speed bell housings. Bellow is the truck adapter which works for both, then a picture of it with the car and light 3 speed column shift for tucks, and then a picture of the two truck bell housings that the new adapter plate works with. Price is going to be $135 & shipping for the kit. The kit will be the adapter plate and 4 bolts required to mount the adapter plate to the truck bell housing.
Bottom line: In the continental United States car adapter plates are $140 shipped and truck adapter platers are $150 shipped. Outside of that area cars are $125 + shipping and trucks are $135 + shipping.
Part 3 - 1st car I purchased! .. Out comes the engine and the rebuild begins!
We left off in my story with Mom knowing and surprisingly wasn’t quite ready to kill me. Of course my Mom is about 5 foot 2 and 120 pounds, and at 16 I was 6 feet and 220 pounds, but then, even I knew if she had it in for us Dad and I would be dead, lol figuratively speaking of course.
In any case, the week after Mom found out about the car and we had the little family show and tell, Dad and I started on the motor. Off came the hood, and off came the intake. Dad shock his head, and soon off came the passenger side head. Not happy with what he saw, off came the other head.
I remember Dad saying, well we have a project here alright, and off he went to get a engine tree as Grandpa called it. It was and adjustable frame that went over the car and that you could put a chain fall from a mounted hook and pull and engine. It was something Grandpa had made and it really was a heavy duty piece of equipment that could be taken apart and moved by 1 person, however assembled had no problem to pull a big motor out of a tractor or bulldozer. Up went the engine tree and before he left the hemi was out of the car and sitting on the barn floor, with its 4 speed transmission coming with it.
The heads went into the back of Mom’s Fargo pickup that we had driven to the farm and home for supper we went. Mom of course wanted to know if it was back running yet, and Dad with a straight face said, nope, we need to freshen it up a bit.
Lol.. yah freshen it up a bit was one way to put it.
After supper Dad and I were in his shop attached to the house, and disassemble of the head took place. What we saw wasn’t pretty. Numerous valves were burnt, there were seats cracked and it was pretty clear, the engine had been driven hard.
The next day Dad took the head to work and when he got home, the report wasn’t good. Both heads had cracks, the one with the blown head gasket and the most burnt valves was warped, cracked and pretty much not repairable.
Next thing to move up from the farm to the shop was the short block. We knew there was antifreeze in the pan, so the question was, how long had it run with antifreeze in the pan and what there the bearings like.. Lol..well pan off and a couple of caps off, and it wasn’t pretty. Bearings were ruined,crank was damaged, rods were marginal, 3 pistons were damaged, and things were not looking well.
Everything got checked for cracks, damage,and in the end Dad would say – well son, at least the block isnt cracked.. So much for this hemi needing a head gasket and away we go. This went from that to a rebuild, to a major rebuild, to the need for a lot of new parts.
The truth is the list of parts was extensive. New crank, rods, pistons, rings, cam, heads, valves and on and on.. So with my part time, after school and summer time job at Rockwood hardware on the go I was literally saving nickel I could for parts. A couple more part time jobs and I was certainly putting in the hours.
I think both Grandfathers, a couple of uncles, and heck even my Mom was feeling sorry for me. When people asked what I wanted for my birthday or Christmas, out came the parts list.. lol
Dad help me find a good crank courtesy of his Chrysler contacts, and I sure lots about modifying a perfectly good crank to make it better. In Grampas shop we bored out the block and Grampa pulled some stings to get me a set of top fuel h-beam rods that actually were likely worth more than I paid for the car. I quickly learned there are balanced rods, and well there are rods my Dad and Grampa were willing to accept as balanced. Out came a rod balancing tool Grampa first built in the 1930s and that had undergone a few modifications and I got to watch the master at work. A so called balanced set of rods, under went about 30 more hours of work Partly it took so long as I was undergoing training Grampa and Dad style and partly because it started to become the pursuit of a perfect set of parts.
At one point in time, Dad went into his parts room in the shop and out he came with a set of heads. These were no normal Hemi Heads and they had already undergone extensive modifications. Dad said to me, “well if were going to do this, then lets really do it”.. and it was really game on.
I remember one Saturday morning, it wasn’t even light and Dad was waking me up to head to his shop. Assembly was about to start. It was more than a little father-son time, as Grampa Kingsbury was already in the shop with everything lined up ready to roll.We started assembly and after lunch Grampa Bolton arrived with the “mystery cam”. I say mystery because he and Dad were back and forth of cam specs, and Grampa had cut and parkerized 3 or 4 cams, had them put in the block checked things and out they came again.
So he had mystery cam #7 as it was known because he had it wrapped in an old hockey practice jersey of mine, and you guessed it, it had a #7 on it.
I figured I was there to make coffee, run for stuff, but oh no.. I most certainly was under heavy supervision, but the expectation was I was to by the chief assembly guy. By Sunday afternoon, the engine was complete and hooked up to a test bed Dad had for testing engines.
I figured ok, lets fire this puppy up…. But oh no.. It seems I was the only one that didn’t know this was going to be a command performance. So we cleaned up,went home, got ready and headed to Grama and Grampa Kingsbury’s for Sunday night dinner. It was darn near a family reunion with aunts and uncles and cousins. After supper was over the two Grama’s standing at the head of the table asked if anyone wanted to go see what ‘Tim, and the cast of automotive tinkerers were up to”. I am sure I blushed a bit and my Grampa Kingsbury burst out laughing as my Grampa Bolton rolled his eyes and my Dad just shook his head. So everyone loaded up, and off to Dad’s shop we went.
I thought it a little odd for about 20 people to have interest in test firing my engine, but what the heck.. So we all arrived in the shop and fired up the monster. With open headers dumping into hoses going outside,2 huge 4 barrel carbs on top, it definitely barked as it was 1st fired. The heads we were using had 2 spark plugs per cylinder so when my cousin said- “no wonder this thing is so loud. A v16 is so cool”…
Of course that lead to my mom commenting that “no wonder it is so expensive” … and so the misinformation continued. Thanks Mom!
Then came the real reason everyone was there. It wasn’t really to hear the engine start up, it was because my aunts and uncles had got together and had the interior redone, had it put into the rolling chassis, and they had brought it up from the farm and rolled it into Dad’s shop after we had left for home. It was a few days before my birthday and well “Happy Birthday!” was the theme as my Uncle got me over as he pretended to look in the car for the 1st time.
So there it was, the engine done, the car done, it was just a case of getting the engine bolted back up to the transmission, and sliding the “big elephant” back into place!
In the next chapter: Its locked down, who knows and who cares how much HP it has, its time to take this puppy to Toronto International Dragway ! Lol.. the NHRA 1/4 mile track, not the now Toronto International Airport !
Well it has been a while since we last checked in with the progress report on the New AoK intake.
As does happen some things just throw a curve ball into a project and the water jacket feature was our
curve ball. We have a perfectionist as our pattern maker and while it didn't increase in price, he most certainly
put in a ton of extra time trying to come up with a solution to the water jacket "perfect solution".
The perfect solution really became comprised of two factors.
1) We asked if it was possible and if so how much of a deal would it be to have 1 set of molds, that allowed
for the creation of the intake without and then with the water jacket.
We were doing that based on a pretty much split down the middle in response from customers on what they would
ideally like to have.
2) Was is there any difference in having the water tube integrated on the outside or the inside.
If it is on the inside it would look better as things are a little more hidden and we don't have any issue
with the it interfering with linkage required for vehicles needing linkage on the outside of the intake such as trucks.
So between #1 and #2 we went from being a couple of weeks ahead when we were ready for a 1st cast early in January, to
being a month or so behind. Lol.. welcome to the world of trying to make as perfect a part as you can.
Now for the good news: The final molding (not just the prototype molding) is now finished and what we hope is the final intake
before going to production with be cast this week.
It will be shipped to us to be checked over, then machined to make sure it is 100% in line with the specs.
Then assuming its two thumbs up we will go into production casting the intake without the water jacket.
No, don't panic, we will then insert the add on mold piece and be able to cast the intake with the water jacket.
So we are making progress and the there are some great things coming from the process but it is taking time.
Expected shipping of intakes to customers... still shooting for April time frames.
This is a picture of our AoK triple for the big block. It has a set of AoK headers made from a stock exhaust manifold.
Customer wanted white !
These two pictures are the AoK triple on Tim Kingsbury (my) 1949 Plymouth Business coupe. It gives you a good idea what the headers
look like mounted on the car. Personally I prefer the look over other headers as it provides more of a period look and provides the same performance results.
We keep being asked about Mopar Overdrives, so I thought I would do a blog on spotting overdrives.
I know from the start this is not the definitive guide, thus I have titled it - "The Rough Field Spotters Guide for Overdrives" and this will start off being slanted towards Plymouths ! This will definitely grow as I need to take some pictures of earlier (pre-1942) overdrives to put up.
If you want to add replies with more information, super, more than welcome. If you want to send me pictures and add them in, again more than welcome. I will be putting a list of contributors on the bottom. I say that because my intention if to keep adding to this. As well I will put up a few pictures that I happen to have close at hand, but will adjust, add and change pictures as time goes on.
I may also put in a tab with links to other sites, article etc on overdrives as I find them !
Chrysler started using Overdrive Transmissions in 1934 and Walter Chrysler described it something to the effect, that the use of true overdrive transmissions were made for high speed cruising and award-winning economy should drivers opt for moderate operation.
"Walter P. Chrysler at White House (cropped)" by Harris & Ewing, photographer
There were several generation of early overdrives used prior to Walter Chrysler's death on 1940, starting with the introduction in 1934 and there use would extend to every part of the Mopar family before the retirement of the L-Head of Flathead Engine Line.
We will concentrate here on the early overdrives, leading up to the "peak" of the Borg Warner Electric Overdrive coming out in the 1952 Plymouth Car line with the R10G1 Borg Warner overdrive attached to a 3 speed manual transmission. The R10G1 was used fro 1952 to 1956, when Plymouth then changed to the longer R10J1 Borg Warner overdrive transmission.
Along the way in the 1952 Canadian Dodge and Fargo heavy trucks a 5 speed transmission was introduced with an option of having 5th gear as overdrive. Teamed up with a 2 speed rear axle, it provided quite a range for hauling heavy payloads, or rolling down the highway empty.
Chapter 2: - The history of the overdrives (short version)
On Monday April 13, 1931 when the United States Patent Office opened, Rex Keller was there to file application # 529,666, making 36 Claims for patent of a “Clutch”. This application would eventually be issued of May 16, 1939 as patent # 2,158,544 to Rex E Keller Los Angeles California.
The application for patent was pitched to Walter P Chrysler, who would assign it to Carl Breer the head of Engineering to see if they could utilize the concept. In Carl Breers, book/autobiography entitled “The Birth of Chrysler Corporation and Its Engineering Legacy” there is an excellent explanation of what took place and here is an excerpt of that book.
It would be during this process that the terms “Keller Clutch” and “Overdrive” would come forward. It should be noted that this “Keller Clutch” is not named after K.T Keller (Kaufman Thuma Keller) who was head of Chrysler Manufacturing at the time, and would upon Walter Chrysler retiring in 1935 become the “hand-appointed successor” as Chairman of the Board of Chrysler Corporation, but was Rex E Keller and inventor from Los Angeles California.
Once Engineering had perfected the Overdrive Transmission Carl Breer discussed its manufacturing with K.T Keller, and both asked for a meeting with Walter Chrysler to discuss that matter. Breer and Keller made a presentation on both the “Keller Clutch”/Overdrive Transmission as well as its manufacture Their estimated cost to setup manufacturing was $25,000, to which Walter Chrysler is quoted in Breers book as saying “We can’t afford it; let Borg Warner make it.”
What isn’t included in Breer’s book is how the $25,000 estimate was arrived at, or what the recommendation of Keller and Breer was. It is my belief that Keller, who was already stretched to bring the new Airflow to completion made sure the estimate was high enough that the joint recommendation of Keller and Breer would be approved by Walter Chrysler.
My Grandfather’s opinion was that this was the most expensive error in Chrysler’s history and ironically mirrored that of Henry Ford with the Dodge Brothers. While it brought the Overdrive transmission to the Chrysler and Desoto lines well ahead of any other automotive manufacturer, it also opened up a Patent that was controlled by Chrysler to its competition through the manufacturing deal with Borg Warner. It would soon be referred to as “the Borg Warner Overdrive”.
Well after my Grandfather’s death when Daimler agreed to sell the Chrysler unit to Cerberus Capital Management in May 2007 for US$6 billion, Borg Warner had a market cap value of almost twice the value of Chrysler.
Unfortunately it seems Grandfather was indeed correct, and he often pointed out that it was not the 1st time where a smaller supplier was put into business and eventually dwarfed the larger manufacturer. Of course he was referring to the Dodge Brothers who prior to going on their own to manufacture their own Cars and Trucks, were major suppliers for Henry Ford. In 1903 the Dodge brothers had agreed to supply Henry Ford with 650 chassis (including engines, transmissions, and axles) for $250 each. In this case to avoid a further investment of $25,000 Chrysler put a much small manufacturer into a business, which later on would come back to bite Chrysler. To put it into relative terms Chrysler had purchased Dodge for approximately $170 million in 1928.
On March 14, 1934 Rex Keller would file application # 715,513, with the United States Patent Office making 4 Claims for patent of an ”Automatic Transmission”. This application would eventually be issued of December 17, 1940 as patent # 2,225,174 to Rex E Keller Beverly Hills California. It would be in this application for patent that the first use of the terminology “Overdrive” would be used. Ironically this patent was not issued until after Walter P Chrysler’s death some 4 months earlier.
So who was Borg Warner -
In 1902 Thomas W. Warner formed the Warner Gear Company in Muncie Indiana to manufacture automobile parts, steering, and transmission gears. In 1909 the First manual transmission is manufactured by Warner Gear. The original Borg-Warner Corporation was formed in 1928 by the merger of Warner Gear, which itself was founded by Thomas Warner in 1901; Borg & Beck founded by Charles Borg and Marshall Beck in 1903 and Marvel Schelber Carburetor Co founded in 1905 by George Schebler and the Mechanics Universal Joint Company.
Chapter 3: The patents
- Work in progress. I now have them, just need to figure out how to get them in the blog entry
Chapter 4: The overdrive generations
This is a high level chart on the various Mopar Overdrives
1934 overdrive 1st used by Chrysler (I believe in the Chrysler Custom Imperial Royal and the Airflow)
This was a Warner Transmission and Warner Overdrive
Patent Image - R E Keller Patent: 2,225,174 Filed: March 14 1934
Walter P Chrysler showing of The 1934 chrysler airflow - equipped with overdrive
1935 Chrysler - Tr14 warner transmission with a separate overdrive unit.
It expanded in the models it was used, some standard equipment and some Optional The models this transmission and overdrive came in were:
CHRYSLER AIRFLOW, MODEL Cl OPTL. CHRYSLER IMPERIAL, C2 (1935) CHRYSLER CUST. IMP. CW* ('35), C3 ('35), DE SOTO, MODEL SG (1935)--OPTL.
An early advertisement showing "over drive"
1936- This year is one on to its own it is a 1 piece - Borg Warner T86 1A overdrive transmission
1937 - This is the first year of the Borg Warner R6 transmission
It is at this point that Chrysler really started to pump the overdrive in its marketing brochures. Not only was it featured in the Car Brochure but they produced a separate brochure just on the overdrive and its features.
Here is an example of the car brochure
Here is the rare 1937 Overdrive Brochure
1938 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - still a top loader, floor shift only
- More details to follow here and shortly I will have some pictures of a 1938 Chrysler Transmission to post.
Here is a 1938 Chrysler Custom Imperial Brochure - extracts
Here is he 1938 Chrysler Royal Imperial Brochure - extracts
Here are some pictures of a 1938 overdrive transmission, freshly restored jan 22 2015 by the master -George Asche
1939 – The Borg Warner R6 transmission - "Electric overdrive" & Optional two formats
So for 1939 you could have the top load or floor shift and you could have column shift which was done with a cable. 1939 also saw the first use of the solenoid so it would electrically kick it out of overdrive. Prior to that you have to go down to about 2 5-35 mph to get it out of overdrive.
Illustration showing the cable used in the Column shift
Here are some pictures of a 1939 overdrive transmission.
1940 – The Borg Warner R7 overdrive and Now Only column shift - 1 year only
This is also the last year where the gear cluster and 2nd speed gear in the 3 speed transmission gave you a "fast 2nd speed". This was done with a cluster tooth count of - "220.127.116.11" and the 2nd speed gear was a 23 tooth count. After this the cluster was a tooth count of "18.104.22.168"
I have a good reference document describing the "WARNER OVERDRIVE "KICK-DOWN1 CONTROL" dated 1940, which I need to try and get uploaded here at some point.
1941 - The Borg Warner R7 overdrive ends as a new car offering
It seems very few cars in 1941 had the R7 overdrive in them although I do know that there was a Chrysler Service bulletin that described putting this R7 overdrive transmission in later model cars and I know of at least 1 1942 Plymouth which had an overdrive from the factory in it. Keep in mind Canada entered the 2nd World War in 1939, so civilian cars after 1939 were tough to get until the 1946 model year. This maybe one of the very 1st Plymouths to have an overdrive in it, as everything I have described earlier are Chrysler and Desoto vehicles.
1952 - 1956 - The Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive and the full introduction in the Plymouth line
I will add a bunch more to this section over time. As well in the reference section will be pictures of the transmission.
1956 (late) more commonly 1957-1959 the Borg Warner R10J1 overdrive appeared
I say late 1956 because I have known seen a Plymouth built on December 10th 1956 that has the R11 overdrive in it right from the Windsor Ontario Canada plant. I will add a bunch more to this R11 section over time.
As well in the reference section will be pictures of the transmission.
The other overdrives
I know described in the article in the reference section below stated that it is 1954 that dodge trucks came out with overdrives and describes other models. Again keep in mind I think we all find new information that allows us to be more intelligent today than we were yesterday and that doesn't mean that at the time that article was written that was the best information available to its author.
I do know that in 1952 both Dodge/Fargo trucks were offered with overdrives, as I have a 1952 Fargo 4 ton with a 265 ci motor, factory dual intake and exhaust, a 5 speed transmission, with 5th being overdrive
I am also told by a very respected expert/researcher of Chrysler Service bulletins which provided information and part number to retrofit overdrives into cars without original equipped overdrives, which included year prior to 1952.
This section will definitely be a work in progress.
Chapter 5: Repair, Mix and Match, or Retrofit primer
In this chapter I am going to try and go over taking transmissions and overdrives from one year/generation and putting them in earlier or in some case later model cars. I will be looking for help here as I know while we have some great knowledge on the subject there is much more information out there.
As well, we will shortly enter into the discussion of putting a more modern overdrive transmission into your old Plymouth and it will not be a T5 conversion. Mopar !!!!!
Here is a great resource document that covers the Overhauling of the 1935-39 Overdrives, thanks to Bert Platz, who is one of those guys who Is one of the specialists for the 1935-38 overdrives.
The Reference Section:
R1) One of the great articles I would like to refer to is one that I have been given Permission from “the living legend” - Jim Benjaminson to use here.
Of course if you are not a member of the Plymouth Owners Club here is the place to Do that and catch other cool stuff and articles
R2) The Chrysler Master Tech Series - a section of the 1952 films put on you tube.
Simply great stuff covering r10g1 overdrives and a few extras I will toss in.
Here is the 1952 movie to explain the overdrive to the dealers.. no this is cool !
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-5 Automotive Overdrive - Operation
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-6 Automotive Overdrive Controls
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-7 Automotive Overdrive Maintenance
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-8 Universal Joints And Propeller Shafts
MTSC - 1952, Volume 5-4 Servicing Tips
R3) A few early pictures
I will attach here a few early pictures, lol and by early I mean early in the development of this blog post. Not early in the overdrives coming from Chrysler. That will come later. Right now, since I have been asked to show a picture of an overdrive I thought I best take this from draft to publish and will just keep updating it.
So consider this a work in progress:
R4) Reference Pictures 1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 19 1/2"
1952-56 Plymouth 3 speed standard with overdrive tranny (R10G1 Borg Warner) with input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing
1952 - 1956 Borg Warner R10G1 overdrive attached to a 3 speed standard transmission looking from bottom - again with the input shaft for a fluid drive bell housing
* You can adapt the R10G1 overdrive on to the 1953-54 Plymouth Hy-Drive transmission (has a different input shaft)
1957 and newer Borg Warner R10J1 transmission attached to a 3 speed standard transmission Total length of tranny from bell housing to back of brake band is 25"
M6 Gyromatic "semi auto" with r7 overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one)
Dodge Gyromatic - had "fluid drive" without overdrive (* Note: I need to put up a better year and identification description for this one but believe it was a 1949)
* Note: a 1949 Dodge Gyromatic has a external brake band for the hand brake and a 1950 and newer has a brake drum with internal shoes for the hand brake Reference Links:
As referenced in my blog thread - The Rough Field Spotters Guide for Mopar Overdrives
One of the great articles I would like to refer to, is one that I have been given
Permission from “the living legend” - Jim Benjaminson to use here.
Of course if you are not a member of the Plymouth Owners Club here is the place to
Do that and catch other cool stuff and articles
FROM THE PAGES OF...
Borg Warner Overdrive Transmission
by Don Frolich
The first production offering of overdrive on domestic automobiles was on the 1934 Chryslers and DeSotos, an event no doubt greatly overshadowed by the radically-new Airflow theme offered that year by those same two marques. It’s perhaps ironic, then, that this option was not available on Plymouths until mid-year 1952 production an, only a few years before its popularity would wane in favor of the ubiquitous automatic transmission and a resurrection of the 4 speed manual box.
Detroit had tried to compensate for the power and RPM limitations of the early thirties engine by means of four speed transmissions, but these were expensive. Moreover, drivers apparently were then unwilling to cope with the additional shifting necessary to take full advantage of them. In the fact, surveys showed that a great deal many 4 speed owners seldom, if ever, used all four ratios in normal driving.
The 1934 Chrysler and DeSoto overdrives (Borg-Warner units, developed in conjunction with Mopar engineers) offered a good compromise solution to this problem, and between 1935 and 1942 eight other marques jumped on the bandwagon with the same Warner overdrives, which soon acquired reputations for both high speed and economy.
Both as originally conceived and in its later generation format on the 1952 Plymouth, the overdrive was essentially a small case bolted to the back of the regular 3 speed transmission having a planetary gearset, which when engaged, reduced engine RPM’s by 30 percent at a given car speed.
The first overdrive had no "kickdown" feature; once above the engagement speed (45 mph on the 1934’s) you momentarily let up on the gas to engage the overdrive, at which point the car was locked into that drive ratio until you again dropped below engagement speed. It could be locked out manually by a dashboard cable, but only below engagement speed, thus the engineers’ trade-offs in selecting the engagement speed were formidable problems. Too high, it would seldom be used; too low, the car would always be lugging, with very poor responsiveness in traffic, especially at higher attitudes.
The fully automatic electrically operated version was introduced in 1939, and its final form, first appeared in 1946, was operationally unchanged but was simplified and less bulky that its ancestors.
Having pioneered the use of overdrive, it‘s surprising what a meager use Chrysler Corporation made of it over the years. Chrysler and DeSoto offered it from the 1934 to 1940 (and 1941 eights); it next appeared in the fifities on Dodge and DeSoto (until 1956) and Plymouth (through 1959) Dodge trucks could be ordered with overdrives from 1954 to 1956. Most independents relied heavily on the overdrive from the thirties until 1963; Ford and Mercury used it from 1949 to 1963; and Chevrolet (the only GM user) from 1955 to 1963.
The basic element of an overdrive is a single epicyclic or planetary gearset, consisting of: (1) a central, externally toothed sun gear; (2) a set of smaller externally toothed planet gears arranged around (and meshing with) the outside of the sun gear, their "axles" collectively supported by a carrier; and (3) an internally toothed ring gear surrounding (and meshing with) the several planet gears. A planetary gearset is in constant mesh. And it can be made to step rotational speeds up or down, or even reverse direction, by judicious choice of which of the three elements is driven and which is prevented from rotating.
For example, if the planet carrier is made to rotate around a fixed central sun gears, than the planet gears "walk" around the sun gear and at the same time revolve about their own individual axes as well (just as heavenly planets both spin on their own axes and also travel around the sun, hence the nomenclature). The planet gears in turn drive the ring gear (output) at some rate faster that the input speed (1.4 times as fast in the overdrive).
As used in the overdrive, automatic shifting from conventional to overdrive and vice-versa is dependent on an electric-solenoid-operated pawl which can be made to hold the sun gear stationary, an over-running clutch on the output shaft, and three electrical circuits: control, solenoid and kickdown. The control circuit (Fig. 1) closes the overdrive relay when: the ignition switch is on, the dash control handle pushed in (engaged), car speed is above the approximately 25 mph (sensed by a governor switch on the transmission output), and the kickdown switch plunger in not depressed.
Fig. 1 Control Circuit
The solenoid circuit (Fig. 2) simply provides current to the solenoid when the relay is closed.
Fig. 2 Solenoid Circuit
When the kickdown switch (Fig. 3) plunger is depressed, two things happen: (1) the normally closed contacts in the solenoid circuit are opened, de-energizing the solenoid; the solenoid spring attempts to withdraw the pawl but the engine torque holds it in. (2) A normally open set of contacts is closed, which completes a circuit from the ignition coil to the solenoid and thence, inside the solenoid, to ground. This interrupts engine torque so the solenoid can retract, which in turns opens the ground contact inside the solenoid, thus immediately restoring ignition function and thus engine power. On the upshift into overdrive, the free wheeling effect of the over running clutch when the accelerator is lifted unloads the torque path (drive line) sufficiently for the solenoid to engage without ignition interruption.
Fig. 3 Kick Down Circuit
As the interchange list indicates, several fifties era Mopar overdrives can be interchanges directly with the transmission assembly (with extension) on many non- overdrive cars back at least to 1941. The overdrive units themselves are all the same; also the transmission in overdrive equipped cars is essentially the same (as non-O.D.) except for a rail which runs internally from the transmission to the overdrive and serves to lock out the overdrive whenever the car is put into reverse, otherwise the over-running clutch would not transmit reverse torque to the rear wheels.
Thus if you find an overdrive transmission that seems correct in most details, but differs, say, transmission input shaft, you can interchange parts between the two transmissions. However don’t try to attach just the overdrive part onto your non-overdrive transmission: it can be done but is tricky, requiring special machining of the case and some other parts.
In addition to the complete transmission-overdrive assembly, the following control parts are required to complete the conversion: the solenoid, control lever, and governor switch, all of which fasten into of onto the overdrive housing: the control cable and dashboard handle; a kickdown switch and bracket, which mounts on the carburetor linkage; and the overdrive relay, which mounts under the hood. Try to get the wiring harness also, either to use of for a pattern for replacement. On my 1949 Plymouth, I mounted the kickdown switch through the floorboard but under the mat just to the left of the clutch pedal pad, so I could get kickdown without dumping the carburetor accelerator pumps, or if I wished, go from second overdrive to high "overdrive" by rolling my left foot outward so as to hit the kickdown as I depressed the clutch for the shift. Later, to accommodate my wife, whose natural action when she wanted more power was to press down the gas pedal, not the left floorboard, I added a second kickdown switch in the conventional location on the carburetor. The normally closed (control circuit) contacts on the two switches must be wired in series, and the two sets of normally open (ignition grounding) contacts connected in parallel.
Anyone who makes the conversion should be aware that a given replacement overdrive (or any other) transmission may have come from a car with a different rear axle ratio, especially since in most years standard ratios were different for cars with and without overdrive. Usually, just replace the speedometer drive pinion in the new transmission with the one from the old to correct the speedometer. Also, be certain that the solenoid circuit is wired with No. 10 wire, and that it is protected with a 14 amp fuse at the battery terminal on the relay.
As to standard rear end ratios, from 1949 through 1952, the 118-1/2 " wheel base cars used 3.9 except the 4 door wagon used 4.1 and the 111" wheel base cars uses 3.73. In 1953 and 1954, non overdrive cars used 3.73 and overdrive, 4.1. A car with 3.73 gears may no work too well with the overdrive: what with Dr. Fed’s Magic Elixir, the Great 55 MPH Hoax , you may never drive fast enough to avoid lugging the engine in overdrive. My ’49 with 3.9 gears seemed to be just fine, but of course I drove a lot then at speeds that are now illegal.
Note the effect of the 0.7 overdrive ration on overall drive gearing:
Rear Axle Ratio Overall ratio in O.D.
3.54 -> 2.48
3.73 -> 2.61
3.9 -> 2.73
4.1 -> 2.87
4.3 -> 3.01
The literature is somewhat contradictory on transmission interchange, so judgment and especially visual comparison is important. The swap should work on any standard transmission Plymouth 6 from 1941 through 1956. However, it appears from the interchange listings for the short wheelbase P-17, P19 and P-22 cars a transmission with a shortened extension housing was used. So to use the same drive shaft as the larger cars would mean that installation of an overdrive would require shortening or switching the driveshaft. On the other hand, as far as I can tell, the 1952 P-22 was available with overdrive, yet the interchange listings show no short drive shafts to accommodate the extra length. So on this switch, your guess is as good as (probably better than) mine.
One warning after you have successfully completed your conversion: in order to lock out the overdrive while moving, depress the accelerator so as to be sure it is kicked down to "underdrive", then while continuing to accelerate simply pull out the control handle. It can be engaged at any time- just push in the control.
In these days of ever-increasing gas prices, especially on tour cars, this conversion makes a lot of sense. It can also save wear and tear on the engine, and add considerably to the flexibility and thus your pleasure, in driving the car.
Thanks for all the awesome responses I have received from members with pictures of intakes, brochures and
information as I keep putting together spotters guides on intakes and overdrives.
I love the shout outs and stories behind your cars. They are great and should be up on the reference area as
testimony to life lessons, great people and the stories behind their cars.
From my super sleuth http://p15-d24.com/user/5770-61farnham/ from the other side of the Pond in England
To Bob http://p15-d24.com/user/22-bobt-47p15/ from Missouri with incredible cars the challenge thrown at his family by mother nature
and their perseverance. Id love to see all of his items I have seen up in a blog entry.
To http://p15-d24.com/user/107-fargos-go-far/ for his help with intake pics, and his "Shout out to the AoK team" video that
I couldn't resist putting up on youtube.
or Ice Road Truckin... in a 55 Fargo pickup truck with a 251 flathead 6
Cruising on a cold snowy day in the Interlake District Of Manitoba Canada.
and last but definitely not least.. http://p15-d24.com/user/7710-charleyd/ scored a copy of the October 1952 Hop Up Magazine
article which gives a big thumbs up to the Nicson intake and I will put it up under that intake thread as well as here.
Keep them coming folks.. If you have pictures with intakes, maybe car brochures that show overdrives (Mopar of any division), overdrive information, corrections to what I have in the blogs, whatever. Oh and if you have a posts somewhere on the forums from years past I should check out or want to share about your car, projects etc, please keep them coming. I'm definitely Lov'n them
and I don't care if your guessing, or speculating on hp or how things work, if it is framed as your best guess, I am ok with that.
The goal remains the same. To overtime put together some resource documents that others can look over and get information
without some massive trolling of the internet, books, and resource places. Aka your one stop shop at the p15-d24 site.
Tim and the rest of the AoK boys.
Sharp Speed and Power Equipment - Al Sharp
First up a vintage decal from Sharp Speed and Power Equipment.
Yes this is the Al Sharp who under the banner "Sharp Engineering" Sponsored (and built the Hemi Heads) for the famous - "Mooneyham & Sharp 554 1934 Coupe" that can today be found be found at Don "Big Daddy" Garlits Drag Racing Museum oh and of course of the famous Hot Wheels collection !
It seems Al Sharp acquired the Fenton intake patterns at a bankruptcy auction from Aaron Fenton. He used the Fenton intake patterns to cast the Von Esser, Jet, Ralph's muffler Shop, Don Cherry and others.
Among those patterns he casted Plymouth/Dodge small blog intake under his own name "Sharp" and for Douglas Speed Shop (D & S on those intakes being Douglas and Sharp)
Al Sharp had worked for a pattern maker before he joined the Navy and spent World War 2 in the Navy. When he got out he founded SP pattern service. I am lead to believe SP stood for Sharp and Pilkington (Gordon Pilkington).
I believe the SP tops were designed for the Stromberg 97 carbs by the SP pattern service.
So the reason why Sharp Intakes for the flathead Mopars perform like the Fentons, seems to be because they are the exact same except for the name/markings !
What I didn't know until very recently was after Al Sharp passed away in the fall of 2004, the Sharp brand continued and on July 26, 2013 the "Sharp Speed and Power Equipment" Brand has been sold to H & H Flatheads/Navarro Racing Equipment.
Here is a picture of Al Sharp holding a flathead intake, the above aforementioned drag racing coupe.
Here are a few shots of a Sharp intake for a 23 1/2" USA small block courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/3672-deathbound/
I have recently spoken to a member who has a D&S branded intake and it was he who jogged my memory about Sharp intakes as I had posted a picture of Al last year in response to another thread.
While it is not really this thread/concept, it may be a good idea to do a piece or thread on the Legend Al Sharp and his partner and Racing Legend Gene Mooneyham. Gene a member of the NHRA hall of fame passed away January 2006, only a few months after Al Sharp.
But to Sharp or D&S intakes, heads, instructions, advertisement or other documentation please bring it
Update: Here are some pictures from http://p15-d24.com/user/5770-61farnham/ of his D & S intake and right below I will put the Fenton so you can see just how similar they are ! Amazing
The Fenton -
Ellis - Made intakes for Chrysler Corporation for the Dodge 331, 377 and 413 ci "super big" block truck engine.
They also made aftermarket intakes for both the USA small block and the Canadian big block 6 cylinder engines.
This intake is believed to be off a feb 1950 built 377 ci engine which was 4" bore and 5" stroke producing 154 hp at 3000rpm and 330 lbs of torque, 7 main bearing crank.
Here is an Ellis intake courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/296-ralph-d25cpe/
A nice example of the Canadian 25 1/2" big block - marked "Ellis Dual Power Manifolds" on the side and
"Dodge" "2 ton" "1 1/2 ton" on the intake runners
Here is another nice example of the Canadian 25 1/2" Big Block - " Dual-Power" intake with Carbs
Photo's courtesy of http://p15-d24.com/user/4694-scotia-steve/
Attached is a picture of an Ellis dual crab intake for a 23 1/2" USA small block
Advertisement and Instruction sheets: also to follow. I think I have some filed somewhere.
Thickson - I believe I have seen 3 different Thickson intakes over the years. This was the one I had a picture of. If you look close there are tabs for the linkage on the intake of this example.
It looks like a Tattersfield influenced intake and I do not know who made which 1st although given it is the later
Tattersfield that had the linkage tabs, I am thinking the Thickson came after the Tattersfield, but that is just a guess.
So this one is a work in progress.
McGurk - More known for Chev intakes, however they did make them for the USA small blocks I am told.
So this one is a work in progress.
* Note: this is the 5th installment on intakes and the 6th with be on Sharp. After that I can't help thinking there may be others I am not thinking of. So if you have any more examples instruction sheets, advertisement, let me know and I will continue the series.
As mentioned in the 1st installment my hope is to gather up the information and instruction sheets, maybe any technical stuff that came with them, examples of linkage etc so that eventually it can be moved to the forums technical information section.
All of these intakes are still being manufactured or substantial amounts of new product still exists.
Offenhauser - still made, available at many suppliers, even the big chains like Summit Racing, and they also
sell "connection kits" with linkage. These dual carb intakes are for the 201, 217 and 230 USA small block engines.
Fenton - still readily available although I did not see them on the big chains.
These dual carb intakes are for the 201, 217 and 230 USA small block engines and a couple of new ones I saw for sale had linkage, and instruction sheets included.
Courtesy of: http://p15-d24.com/u...5770-61farnham/
A Fenton intake pictured with a home made dual exhaust manifold
A Fenton Aluminum Head
Fenton Head Details as well as Fenton Header Instruction Pages
I will apologize right now as I had these along with a bunch of stuff sent to me
and I have lost the note as to whom they came from. please drop me
a note so I can edit in the credit for the find ! Tim
* Fenton Patterns were sold in a Bankruptcy auction to Al Sharp, so see part 6 which is the Sharp Blog Piece
Edgy Speed Shop
Dual carb intake for Dodge/Plymouth 201,218 & 230 USA small block engines.
His casting mounts two, 3 bolt carburetor's such as Stromberg 97's. He also makes Heads for the small
and big block and I will attach a picture in passing.
Adapter can be found on ebay to change the two barrel mounts to Carter Ball and Ball carbs as well.
Earl makes his Cast Finned Aluminum cylinder head for both small blocks (Plymouth/Dodge 23 1/2") and big blocks - Canadian 25 1/2" engines
* If you have the instruction sheets for anyone these let me know and I will be happy to post them.